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SPEAKER_06: This is 99% invisible. I'm Roman Mars. The United States and Canada share the longest international border in the world. And ever since Canada got the keys to the place in 1867, we've been pretty peaceful and genial neighbors to each other. The previous landlord, Great Britain, well, the US had a bit more of a spotting relationship with them. We invaded them. They burned down our house. It was a whole thing. But even though the border with Canada is now pretty tame, when two countries touch each other over a stretch of 5500 miles, it can result in some surprisingly weird disputes, misunderstandings, geographical quirks and some really good stories. And we have a few of them for you today. Here to tell us the first one is producer Vivian Lay. Hey Viv. Hey Roman. So what do you have for us?
SPEAKER_02: OK, so the border between the US and Canada is a very special, very weird place. But there was a legal case from the early 2000s that showed this really odd problem with the boundary in the West between Canada and Washington State specifically. This is the first time I'd ever heard of this problem.
SPEAKER_02: This is Richard Sanders. He was a Washington State Supreme Court justice from 1995 to 2011. And Justice Sanders has also been practicing law for over 50 years. Old lawyers never die. They just lose their appeal, right?
SPEAKER_02: So I wanted to talk to him about this case that made it all the way up to the state Supreme Court in 2001 called State versus Norman. Well, when I first read the facts of the case, I thought it was some sort of a joke and I laughed my head off. But of course, it's a serious matter.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is exciting. So what are the facts of the case?
SPEAKER_02: So in 1996, three people named Helen Norman, Kevin Beelen and Laura Lee Stradwick were apprehended by U.S. customs officials and then searched at the border crossing between Washington and British Columbia, Canada. They were found to be in the possession of drugs. And one of the three also was found to be in the possession of a stolen credit card. So all three were arrested, charged and then tried. But their particular defense didn't deny that they were in possession of drugs or stolen property. What they argued was that at the time of their arrest, they were actually outside of the jurisdiction of Washington state and therefore could not be tried in Washington court.
SPEAKER_06: Were they arguing that they were just in the jurisdiction of British Columbia, Canada? No, they claimed that they were neither in Canada nor Washington. Their defense said that they were actually in a strip of land that existed between Washington and Canada.
SPEAKER_06: I didn't know such a strip of land existed. I thought they were right up against each other.
SPEAKER_02: You know, whether or not Washington and Canada touch was actually something that was up for debate. This case raises basic yet simple jurisdictional questions of what and where.
SPEAKER_01: What is the northern border of our state? Where in relation to that border did these crimes take place?
SPEAKER_02: So the three defendants were searched south of the international Canadian border. That is a fact. But this basically comes down to where the Washington state border actually is. So in the early to mid 1800s, the U.S. and Great Britain jointly occupy the territory north of California and west of the Rocky Mountains, also known as the Pacific Northwest. But during this time, there was this frankly problematic idea that it was America's God-given right to take this westward territory. So Roman, you've heard of the phrase 54-40 or fight? I have, yeah. Yeah, it's catchy.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah. So just as a little recap, President James K. Polk's big campaign issue in 1844 was to continue the expansion of the United States to include Texas, which was then Mexico, and the Pacific Northwest. So 54-40 or fight became sort of his battle cry. And the numbers referred to the northern boundary of the Oregon territory at the latitude line of 54 degrees 40 minutes.
SPEAKER_06: Right. And so up to that point, we will fight for whatever it is up to 54 degrees in 40 minutes. Yes. Although the Polk administration actually did not end up getting 54.
SPEAKER_02: So the Oregon Treaty of 1846 was signed between the U.S. and Great Britain, and it established that the boundary between the two territories would be set at the 49th parallel west of the Rocky Mountains. So they, I guess, kind of settled for 49-40 or fight. So the boundary was established, surveyed and marked. And then four decades later, in 1889, Washington was formally incorporated into the union as a state. And the drafters of the state constitution just adopted that international border and decided to use that same language found in the Oregon Treaty that the northern boundary of Washington was, quote, west along the 49th parallel. OK, well, this makes sense so far.
SPEAKER_06: OK, so here's the rub. They marked the 49th parallel wrong.
SPEAKER_02: Well, how did they manage to do that?
SPEAKER_02: OK, so I'm going to have to kind of yada yada this point because you do not want me explaining astronomic methods of land surveying to you. Fair enough. But the first thing that went wrong was that the instrument that they used to survey the land was offset by the local gravitational pull of the earth in that specific area. And the second thing that went wrong was that when the surveyors marked the 49th parallel, they basically marked two latitude points and then traced a straight line in between them and said, bam, there's the 49th parallel. Well, the earth is famously round. It's known for its roundness.
SPEAKER_06: Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_02: So the straight line indicating the 49th parallel was actually off by several hundred feet in some places because it should have been a curved line to account for the curvature of the earth.
SPEAKER_06: OK, so certain areas, the boundary between Washington and Canada is in the wrong place. But I kind of don't understand why it matters because that just means that the border between the United States and Canada is just shifted a little bit. So why does it really matter? Yes. OK, so in 1809, there was another treaty between the United States and Great Britain that actually addressed how messed up the border between the U.S. and Canada was.
SPEAKER_02: So basically, the two countries agreed to, like, gussy up the U.S.-Canada boundary with more modern surveying techniques and then move some stuff over and then decided that the international border was where it was landmarked. So that precise language of 49th parallel was actually dropped from the international border. OK. But the state of Washington did not update its constitution with this language. So the Washington state border is actually in some places several hundred feet below the international border, which is where we come back to that 2001 Supreme Court case, state versus Norman, where Justice Sanders was on the court.
SPEAKER_01: Their defense was that the state of Washington had no jurisdiction because they were outside the state when the crime was committed. So the three defendants in this case were clearly within the boundary that was demarcated as Washington state. But after their arrest, their defense used GPS to locate the customs facility where they were searched.
SPEAKER_02: And technically, it took place north of Washington state jurisdiction. Yeah, it's a technicality, but it's the law is made of technicalities and our jurisdiction, our state boards is circumscribed by the borders of the state.
SPEAKER_01: So if you're if you're on the high seas or if you're in Idaho or Oregon or Canada, you cannot be prosecuted under the laws of the state of Washington. So it is a technicality, but it's pretty fundamental technicality.
SPEAKER_02: But what I find fascinating is that if these three defendants were able to get the state Supreme Court to side with their case, it would essentially acknowledge that the Washington state border is not where it says it is. And it would formally establish like a strip of land hundreds of feet wide that is between Washington and Canada, but still part of the U.S. Hmm. So what did the court decide in this case?
SPEAKER_06: You know, unsurprisingly, the state Supreme Court determined that, no, there is not this nebulous strip of territory that doesn't belong to Washington or Canada and is just like free of state jurisdiction.
SPEAKER_02: That makes sense.
SPEAKER_06: I mean, these come up a fair amount, you know, like in in court cases and really what it comes down to is a judge just goes, no, clearly that wasn't what was meant. And if common sense dictates that people are subjected to the laws, then they will be subjected to those laws. Yes, that is true.
SPEAKER_02: What I did find interesting about this case is that, you know, the justices cited eight to one that the Washington state border is where it's always been because common sense. But there was one dissenting judge. And I will give you two guesses as to who that lone dissenting Supreme Court justice was. Wait, is this our guy, Justice Sanders, that you've been talking to?
SPEAKER_06: It was indeed.
SPEAKER_02: I thought it deserved at least one vote on the Supreme Court, and that's what they got.
SPEAKER_01: It was just like it was like a statement of the fact that that ambiguity requires a non-unanimous decision.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, he's like, well played, well played to get one vote.
SPEAKER_02: But like, you know, even though this decision could have created like this jurisdictional limbo, you know, Justice Sanders ended up writing the scathing dissent that I think is probably one of the most entertaining, you know, Supreme Court opinions I've read. Like he says that the state constitution is unambiguous, and if Hipparchus of Nicaea could figure out astronomical measurements of latitude in the second century B.C., then these surveyors 2,000 years later probably had the means to locate the 49th parallel. I mean, I get that he wants to honor the Constitution, but maybe the limitations of, you know, 19th century surveying should be taken into account.
SPEAKER_06: You can't just redraw things. Yeah. I mean, I honestly don't know if I could locate the 49th parallel if I looked at a map.
SPEAKER_02: But it was a pretty creative defense regardless.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, totally. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06: Well, it's nice to know that people are actually reading the state constitutions. It's just trying to get out of a drug offense. Thanks for the story. Thank you.
SPEAKER_06: So I'm here with Kurt Kohlstedt, the digital director and co-author of The 99% Invisible City. Hey, Kurt. Hey, Roman. And you have a Canadian border story for us. Oh, I do.
SPEAKER_05: Okay, hit me. It's about this pair of adjacent parks that are along the U.S.-Canadian border in Blaine, Washington, and Surrey, British Columbia.
SPEAKER_06: Okay, so we're still on the west side of the continent. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05: And in these parks, like right where they meet along the border, there's this big peace arch monument with this inscription, May these gates never be closed.
SPEAKER_06: Wow. Well, that's a pretty bold statement for a border. Right? Which is like antithetical to what borders are usually about. So what's the story there? Well, the arch and the parks date back to the early 1900s, but that never closed sentiment is actually a nod to the War of 1812 between the U.S. and the UK.
SPEAKER_05: And at the end of that conflict, basically both sides signed a treaty to leave the border between the U.S. and Canada undefended as a sign of friendship. And so now there's this arch with this sentiment written on it, but I mean, can you truly walk through it whenever you want?
SPEAKER_06: Well, yeah, for most of the past century, you absolutely could.
SPEAKER_05: And when this park space is open for visitors, people can just freely cross into it from either side and then hang out without actually waiting to get through some tedious border checkpoint. So it ends up being this kind of no man's land. And then when they leave, visitors just have to exit back to their country of origin.
SPEAKER_06: OK, so the arch doesn't really operate as a checkpoint, but it sounds as if the entrance to each park might operate as checkpoint a little bit. Well, sort of. It's like you can freely walk into the park and there's people patrolling the park.
SPEAKER_05: But the real key is you should have identification with you because when you try to exit the park, like they want to make sure that you're coming back into the country you're supposed to be coming back into.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah. OK, that makes sense. That makes sense. But it's a little less rigorous than what we think of as a normal international border checkpoint.
SPEAKER_05: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. But it started to change a little bit in this past year and a half, as you might imagine, because of the pandemic.
SPEAKER_06: Right.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah. So each country maintains and controls its side of the park. Right. And early in the pandemic, both sides kept everything open. But even after Canada decided to close its side down, Canadians have still been able to meet up with Americans by crossing into the U.S. park along this one side. Huh. Well, I can imagine a lot of people are taking advantage of that because everything else was pretty closed.
SPEAKER_06: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like a lot of friends and family split by the border have continued to gather here. And there have even been a ton of binational weddings at the park.
SPEAKER_05: Well, that makes sense. I mean, it's a convenient way to get together and people like get married in parks.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, absolutely. I don't know what you do after the ceremony. You just split apart again? Yeah, you go your separate ways. I mean, that's that's the crazy thing, right? It's like you still have to kind of go back to your country of origin.
SPEAKER_05: But it's still a pretty convenient place for people to get together and celebrate.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's partly that direct ease of access. But also people fully crossing over in conventional ways have faced up to a two week quarantine and COVID testing.
SPEAKER_05: But they can get around all that by meeting up in this spot instead. And as you might imagine, you know, divided families who can't afford to take all that time off of work to self isolate after a trip. I mean, this border zone loophole has been a real boon for them. I'm pretty careful about all the COVID stuff. And I think that these quarantines are really, really effective.
SPEAKER_06: And I'm just kind of surprised that both countries just haven't shut this down entirely. Yeah. And, you know, that's kind of the craziest part, because legally, no matter what either country wants to do, neither side can fully close the border because that would be an international treaty violation.
SPEAKER_05: So this is the treaty that you mentioned dating back to the War of 1812. I mean, that that thing really has teeth. Like, they have to keep the border open in some place.
SPEAKER_06: Yep, that's the idea. And so you still have authorities policing the parks and, you know, regulating who is allowed in and where they exit. But they're not really able to just stop people from meeting up entirely.
SPEAKER_05: Huh. That's kind of amazing. So for the sake of argument, like, what would happen if one side actually decided to like, you know, put up a wall and shut the border down?
SPEAKER_06: I mean, Canada was pretty proactive when it came to COVID protocols and shutting the border down. Like, what would happen if they put their wall up? Well, that's the thing. I was looking into this and I found this immigration lawyer who was interviewed by the CBC.
SPEAKER_05: And he says that a full closure would have some pretty wild side effects, and they would depend upon like which side violates the agreement. Okay. So he claims if Canada broke the treaty, in theory, the US could lay claim to parts of Ontario and Quebec. And if America broke it, Canada could get parts of Maine, Michigan and Wisconsin. So basically North American geography as we know it is contingent on this early 1800s treaty remaining in effect.
SPEAKER_06: This is just wild. But are people, you know, still kind of worried about meetups, you know, in this park during the pandemic anyway? Yeah. No, they do take it really seriously. And there are locals, you know, on both sides who are concerned about COVID from all these visitors, of course, which makes sense.
SPEAKER_05: And so a lot comes down to individual visitors, and some of them play it really safe, right? They just sit on their side of the border in chairs and chat with like people from the other side across the border. But you know, whatever we think or the government thinks about it in terms of health and safety, it just kind of is what it is. Neither side can actually shut it down entirely. At least without, you know, trading parts of Ontario and Maine in the process.
SPEAKER_06: Right. Except for that. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_05: Well, I'm so intrigued that this place exists. Thank you so much for telling me this story. I had no idea.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, anytime.
SPEAKER_06: So I'm talking in the studio today with Lasha Madon, who's one of the producers of this show. Lasha, I hear you have a story about a disputed island. Well, yes, but Roman, I'm going to start this story by telling you a little bit of lore.
SPEAKER_06: Fantastic. I love lore. All right. It's a tale about a guy named Barnabas, but most people called him Tall Barney. Supposedly he was six feet, seven and a half inches tall.
SPEAKER_03: Tall Barney was born in Jonesport, Maine in 1835. He was, by almost every written account, a crusty sea captain. There's a 2001 news article that described him as a, quote, reserved, weathered sea salt of a man. Another called him a walking hurricane. Tall Barney was rugged and strong, and he was just a bad temper. Some people claim that one time he punched a horse and killed it just from the punch. That does sound like lore, but I'll go with it.
SPEAKER_03: And so the tale goes like this. It's the spring of 1865, and in an attempt to avoid the Civil War, Tall Barney went out to sea. He camped out on this little island 10 miles off the coast of Maine called Machias Seal Island. And over time, Tall Barney came to believe that this island belonged to him. He put the island in his will. It was to go to the first male descendant to be named Barnabas after him. So not just the first male descendant, but the first one named Barnabas.
SPEAKER_06: Right. That's specific. And that took a couple generations. But his great grandson, Barna Norton, was born in 1915.
SPEAKER_03: And Barna then, for his entire life, claimed the island was his. For the next six decades, Machias Seal Island became the center of Barna Norton's world. He traveled to the island by boat thousands of times, taking bird lovers from around the world to tour it. Turns out the island is actually one of the world's best places to see puffins nesting. Thousands of them. And for many, many years, Barna would tell the people on his boat a particular story. He would say, I own the island. It was given to me.
SPEAKER_06: So does he actually own it?
SPEAKER_03: Well, no. Good. The thing is, Barna's story conflicts with the official stances of both Canada and the U.S. So the U.S.-Canada border is the longest bilateral border between two countries in the world, right? It's 5,525 miles long. And this little chunk of 20 acres are the last crumbs of land that both countries claim as theirs. Meaning, the dispute over this island is actually the last land border dispute between the U.S. and Canada. It's been going on for centuries, and it shows just how messy borders can be.
SPEAKER_04: It's a great example of how random and arbitrary borders are. People treat them like they were handed down from God and that they're immutable. But in fact, they're very human creations.
SPEAKER_03: So this is Stephen Kelly. He's a research scholar at the Sanford School of Public Policy at Duke. And before that, Stephen used to work in the Foreign Service, so he's spent a lot of time thinking about borders. Stephen's fascinated by Machaya Seal Island and what it represents. But he says the island itself, it's just a tiny hunk of rock, a treeless lump. Machaya Seal Island is very unimpressive.
SPEAKER_04: And as you approach it, it's completely flat and you can see a little bit of the lighthouse as you get closer and closer. But there are no trees. It's featureless. Machaya Seal Island is about 10 miles off the coast of Maine, and it sits at the point where the Gulf of Maine meets the Bay of Fundy.
SPEAKER_03: Roman, I just sent you a link of what it looks like on a map if you want to take a look.
SPEAKER_06: Oh, it's small. It's like you don't even see the land. You just see like the little pointy arrow thingy. So you get real close. And I mean, it's so small that no human has ever permanently inhabited the island.
SPEAKER_03: Just birds. A lot of birds. In fact, only 30 people are allowed per day to visit the island to see these birds during the summer months. 15 people from Canada, 15 from the U.S. Stephen's been lucky enough to visit twice.
SPEAKER_04: And when you land, you have to walk on these wooden boardwalks that keep you from stepping on and crushing eggs or hatchlings of the puffins and the razorbills and the terns and the other birds that nest on the island. So as you're walking on these boardwalks, the terns can get very possessive about their nests and they buzz you. They come down and actually hit your head and they encourage you to carry an umbrella or a stick over your head to sort of ward them off or hope that they'll hit the stick rather than your head.
SPEAKER_06: I didn't realize there would be that much activity going on, that the birds have really taken over. Like it isn't the barnabuses of the world who really own that island. It's the birds who own that island. It's totally the birds. So how did this dispute over a rather kind of like, you know, economically useless piece of land come about?
SPEAKER_03: Yeah. So it's been a hard dispute for the two countries to settle because both sides are actually basing their arguments in historical documents that do help prove each point. So a quick history lesson. You ready?
SPEAKER_06: Oh, totally. Let's go.
SPEAKER_03: OK. In 1783, the Treaty of Paris officially ended the Revolutionary War between Great Britain and the American colonies. And that treaty gave American colonies ownership over all islands within 20 leagues of the American shore. That's roughly 70 miles. Machia Seal Island is less than 10 miles from the town of Cutler, Maine, on the coast. And so it satisfies the conditions of this treaty. But. Yeah, there's always a but.
SPEAKER_03: The Treaty of Paris exempted islands that had been part of the British colony of Nova Scotia, which is now part of Canada. And the Canadians now say Machia Seal Island was included in a 1621 land grant, which deeded Nova Scotia and any island within six leagues of its coast to its British colonizers. And therefore, Machia Seal Island belongs to Canada. However, both the Canadian and American paperwork failed to specify Machia Seal Island by name.
SPEAKER_06: Well, that's a lesson for you. Just keep your you have to keep your treaties tight. You have to specify everything.
SPEAKER_03: So from the late 1700s on, Machia Seal Island was claimed by both countries. Then in 1832, the British took the first step in occupying the territory by building a lighthouse there. And when Canada became a country a couple decades later in 1867, they inherited that lighthouse. And to this day, the Canadian Coast Guard sends lighthouse keepers to live on the island, even though the lighthouse is entirely automated. Two guards operate in rotating four week shifts, all to supposedly protect Canada's claims to sovereignty.
SPEAKER_04: They don't have anything to do with the lighthouse. They mow the lawn and they help tourists land. They live on the island. There's two of them. But the light functions without their intervention. And when I was out there, one of them told me that, you know, like if the light malfunctions, they don't even fix it. Somebody else comes in and fixes it.
SPEAKER_06: I see. I mean, they're they're using that. We talked about this in the episode called Mine. The idea of the possession of just them being present is really what it's about more than anything. Right. It's as if their presence earns them something like international squatters rights.
SPEAKER_03: The lighthouse keepers also put up warning signs and maple leaf flags throughout the island. And for decades, Canada and the U.S. have been quietly squabbling like this over the island in these subtle ways.
SPEAKER_06: It sort of reminds me of like siblings trying to share a room and they're just grumbling over like, you know, he touched me or, you know, what side what is on and how to divide it. I mean, I've I've been here before.
SPEAKER_06: Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_03: And I mean, things never really escalated into dangerous conflict in regards to this island. Each country just kind of put up with the other while firmly maintaining their own position. And meanwhile, remember Barna Norton, that great grandson of Tall Barney? Not only did he bring birders out to the island, but every Fourth of July for his entire adult life, Barna would sail to the island, plant American flags along the path all the way up to the lighthouse and ask the Canadian lighthouse keepers for rent.
SPEAKER_06: This is a chip off the old block. And apparently the government of Canada sent Barna a letter every few years telling him he couldn't land on the island anymore.
SPEAKER_03: But the U.S. State Department actually backed Barna up in 1983. They sent him a letter that said he had, quote, every right to ignore any regulation that Canada might pretend to set for Machias Seal Island. And Barna carried a copy of this letter with him when he'd visit the island to, you know, figuratively shove it in Canada's face. Anyway, eventually Barna died in the early 80s and his claims that the island was his kind of died with him.
SPEAKER_06: And so did that settle it? I mean, is the island sort of considered Canada's from that point forward? No, it did not settle it.
SPEAKER_03: And actually, the dispute over this island has gotten more and more intense over the years because it's bigger than just who gets to own this piece of rock and the birds that live on it. It's about something called the gray zone, which is the body of water that surrounds this island. Whoever owns the island also lays claim to these waters. And these waters happen to be the richest area for lobster fishing in the world, which means it's an area that neither country is willing to lose control over. Yeah, I guess it always comes down to money. And in this case, lobsters and lobsters equals money.
SPEAKER_06: And part of the problem of having two countries trying to claim ownership over Machias Seal Island and the gray zone is that both countries have different rules for conserving the same resource.
SPEAKER_03: So the resource in this case is lobsters. Both countries want to make sure we don't over fish, but they're using very different means to do that. Here's Stephen again. Canadians, for example, Canadian lobstermen don't fish for lobsters during the summer.
SPEAKER_04: They allow the lobsters to spawn and reproduce. But for American lobstermen, summer is the big season. Well, Canadian fishermen complained that basically the Americans were having a free for all in the gray zone while they had to keep their boats laid up.
SPEAKER_03: So in 2002, lobster fishers from Canada petitioned the government to allow them to fish in the waters in and around the gray zone during the summer, hoping they'd get a better haul that way.
SPEAKER_04: So in the early 2000s, the Canadian government changed its rules to open up one fishing area in the entire eastern part of Canada to fishing during the summer. And that's the gray zone. They established an exception so that Canadian lobstermen could fish in the gray zone all year long, just like the Americans do. And that's when the most recent conflicts began.
SPEAKER_06: So it caused more conflicts. What are we talking about here?
SPEAKER_03: Yeah. So this is when things start to get tense out on the water. Canadian and American lobstermen threatening to cut each other's lines, stealing gear, death threats, things like that. One time, a 61-year-old American fisherman warned a Canadian patrol boat that he was getting ready to ram right into it. Another time, a Maine lobsterman got his thumb ripped off while he was trying to free his traps from Canadian fishing lines. Which brings us to today. More people from both countries are fishing in the gray zone today than ever before. And lobster prices are actually at a record high right now, which means there's more potential for conflict than ever before.
SPEAKER_06: Wow. It sounds so intense. What are the governments doing about it? I mean, they're just letting them fight it out on the seas?
SPEAKER_03: I mean, sort of. Fantastic. So the Canadians are like, there's nothing to discuss here. Machaya Seal Island in the gray zone belonged to us. I mean, we've had a lighthouse here since 1832. What more is there to discuss? But the legal beagles at the State Department's legal bureau say, yes, but it's been well established in cases like this,
SPEAKER_04: that when one country builds an aid to navigation on another piece of land, that does not confer sovereignty.
SPEAKER_03: So in other words, they're saying that the lighthouse doesn't mean Canadians have an actual legal claim. Stephen says this kind of thing has happened a lot in land disputes between France and England, for example, where one of the countries built some sort of navigation marker on an island ages ago and then later claimed sovereignty over the island. And in cases like that, the World Court said, no, that's not a fair justification for ownership. You put that navigational aid there for your own purposes. And just because the other country didn't object doesn't automatically make it yours.
SPEAKER_03: And so the American stance is?
SPEAKER_04: Our lawyers say the lighthouse does not in and of itself prove that Machaya Seal Island is Canadian.
SPEAKER_06: So is there any way out of this impasse?
SPEAKER_03: I mean, likely nothing will happen, at least not from the government. You know that emoji where the person is shrugging their shoulders with their hands facing up? That's yeah, that's that's kind of the direction that we're we're in and the direction we're headed.
SPEAKER_06: That's the official policy position of both governments is shrug emoji.
SPEAKER_03: And I mean, years ago, Stephen wrote an op-ed in which he proposed letting the dispute go to something called arbitration, meaning let the International Court of Justice look at all the legal arguments and decide whose historical claim is more valid. Both countries can make their best argument and let the court decide. Because as long as the island and the surrounding gray zone remains contested, it leaves open a lot of messy questions. You know, what happened if somebody got murdered on Machaya Seal Island?
SPEAKER_04: So the American tour boat operator lands a bunch of Americans, they get in a dispute. One pulls out a gun and kills the other. So whose law applies? And meanwhile, there's yet another looming threat to these lobster fishers, potentially an even scarier threat than this border conflict.
SPEAKER_03: The waters are warming.
SPEAKER_06: Oh, so how does climate change like factor into this? So the waters in the Gulf of Maine have been warming up more and more each year,
SPEAKER_03: which has meant that lobstering farther down the coast, like in Massachusetts or even in southern Maine, is now becoming near impossible because the water there is too warm for lobsters to even survive. And because the waters around Machaya Seal Island are slightly farther north, those waters are still ideal for lobsters. In fact, the waters around Machaya Seal Island have now become the epicenter for lobster production in the world. Wow. So just everything is just making this more and more of a hotspot.
SPEAKER_06: The gray zone is the place to be if you're a lobster fisherman, totally.
SPEAKER_03: And the number of lobsters caught there have soared in recent years, in part because the fish that used to feed on baby lobsters, especially cod, they've been decimated. So the top level predators are gone and there's nothing to control the lobsters. So just as climate change has made the ocean off of southern New England inhospitably warm for lobsters, it's warmed the waters off of Maine to a temperature that's actually more favorable to lobsters. Well, I mean, for now, I mean, presumably it would just get warmer and warmer and make it tough there too.
SPEAKER_06: Right. That's the fear.
SPEAKER_03: I mean, Maine's lobster catch has become so dependent on the gray zone. And, you know, this lobster squabble is ultimately at the heart of why this dispute over who Machaya Seal Island belongs to is still unresolved. In fact, ironically, it seems like the one thing lobstermen in both countries seem to agree on is to not reach an agreement about who the waters belong to. There's just too much at stake here for both sides, it seems, if one of them loses access to these waters entirely. It seems like they'd rather muddle through, you know, keeping their fingers crossed that things don't get worse. But, you know, maybe we'll eventually live in a world in which the lobsters won't exist in these waters. And then who's to say? What will we decided about the island?
SPEAKER_06: Oh, my goodness. Lasha. That's not the way I want this to end at all. How's that? How's that for an optimistic note to end on?
SPEAKER_03: Oh, my goodness. Oh, no. Let's I guess I long for a world where we're fighting over Machaya Seal Island because then it means that it's healthy and safe.
SPEAKER_06: So, oh, my God. So let's keep this feud going.
SPEAKER_06: Coming up, if a border falls in the woods, how do you know it's there? That story after this. The International Rescue Committee works in more than 40 countries to serve people whose lives have been upended by conflict and disaster. Over 110 million people are displaced around the world, and the IRS urgently needs your help to meet this unprecedented need. The IRS aims to respond within 72 hours after an emergency strikes, and they stay as long as they are needed. Some of the IRS is most important work is addressing the inequalities facing women and girls, ensuring safety from harm, improving health outcomes, increasing access to education, improving economic well-being and ensuring women and girls have the power to influence decisions that affect their lives. Generous people around the world give to the IRS to help families affected by humanitarian crises with emergency supplies. Your generous donation will give the IRS steady, reliable support, allowing them to continue their ongoing humanitarian efforts, even as they respond to emergencies. Donate today by visiting rescue.org slash rebuild. Donate now and help refugee families in need. Squarespace is the all-in-one platform for building your brand and growing your business online. Stand out with a beautiful website, engage with your audience and sell anything. Your products, content you create, and even your time. With member areas, you can unlock a new revenue stream for your business and free up time in your schedule by selling access to gated content like videos, online courses or newsletters. This summer, why not share your adventures with your followers in a newsletter or maybe make some fun video compilations of all your summer escapades. Now you can create pro-level videos effortlessly in the Squarespace Video Studio app. You can easily display posts from your social profiles on your website or share your new blogs or videos on social media. Automatically push website content to your favorite channels so your followers can share it too. Plus, use Squarespace's insights to grow your business. Learn where your site visits and sales are coming from and analyze which channels are most effective. Go to squarespace.com slash invisible for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use the offer code invisible to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Chances are you're listening to 99% invisible on your phone, probably while you're on the go. Think of all that you do on your phone the moment you leave your front door, whether it's looking up directions, scrolling social media or listening to your favorite podcast. It requires an amazing network. That's why you should switch to T-Mobile. T-Mobile covers more highway miles with 5G than anyone else and helps keep you connected with 5G from the driveway to the highway and the miles in between. Because your phone should just work where you are, it's your lifeline to pretty much everything you didn't bring with you. So next time you head out, whether you're taking a trip or going to work or just running errands, remember T-Mobile has got you covered. Find out more at T-Mobile dot com slash network and switch to the network that covers more highway miles with 5G than anyone else. Coverage is not available in some areas. See 5G details at T-Mobile dot com. So I'm back again with Kirk Colestead and you have another story about the Canadian border and you're from Minnesota. So you've had some you've had some, you know, like actual like experience with the Canadian border a little more often than many of us on the staff, except for the Canadians, because we do have a couple of those. We have Lasha and Chris are from Canada, but you have a lot of experience at the Canadian border as an American. You betcha. As a kid, I used to go canoeing at a YMCA summer camp called Wijewagen, which is way up in northern Minnesota, really close to Ontario.
SPEAKER_05: And the main base camp had this old lodge and some cabins on the water. But that was really just a staging area because from there, counselors would take groups of us kids in canoes to go camping. And some of these trips were weeks long and involved crossing the border into Canada.
SPEAKER_06: So if you're way out in the wilderness, like how do you know that you're at the border?
SPEAKER_05: Well, see, I had that same question because up in the boundary waters, most of the border runs through the middle of lakes. So there are no road signs. There's no like border crossing station. And my first year out, our camp counselors pulled up a map in the middle of a lake and then had us campers squint into the water. They told us to look for a red and white Canadian colored border chain at the bottom of the lake below.
SPEAKER_06: Well, like a giant like metal chain under the water, like right. Like painted like the Canadian flag.
SPEAKER_05: And, you know, being kids, some of us believed it, at least at first. But of course, they were pulling our chain, so to speak. I'm so sorry. I mean, that would have fooled me. I mean, it almost fooled me.
SPEAKER_06: If you told me it happened now, I would look. Wow, that's amazing. You know, you have to stop and think about it.
SPEAKER_05: If you think about it, it does seem crazy to try to mark out this whole border at all, right, because it's thousands of miles long and, you know, literally the longest international border in the world. And it runs over lakes and forests and mountains. See, you have to wonder, like, how would anybody mark a boundary like that? But then more recently, I read about the slash.
SPEAKER_06: Oh, so what is the slash? I mean, that sounds pretty ominous. Yeah, it does. But it's this clear-cut area that extends 10 feet on either side of the border.
SPEAKER_05: And when I first found out about it, it really did sound like another, like, maybe this is a myth thing that came out of lawyers, you know, tell gullible kids. Because it's pretty uncanny. Like if you look at an aerial view, particularly, you know, in a rural area with lots of trees, it looks like some god just took an X-Acto knife and like sliced a straight line through the forest. It's like unnatural. That actually does sound like something Cam Consul should make up because it sounds like a surprisingly difficult task.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, absolutely. It's this really strange, almost unbelievable, gigantic, epic project.
SPEAKER_05: I mean, we're talking about a huge coast-to-coast border and a lot of it's in really remote, hard-to-reach areas, too. Wow. It sounds like a lot of work, especially when, to really appreciate it, you kind of have to look at a satellite photo.
SPEAKER_06: Which seems like you don't really like do things geared towards satellites.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, most people at the border, you know, like they don't see this, right? Like it's not like a tourist attraction, but it is a ton of work, except it's less work than other approaches would be. So for context, like the rules around international borders specify that they have to be really clear to have legal weight. And a wall would be like a huge pain, right? And it would disrupt wildlife. So it turns out that nothingness, this intentional absence of a physical barrier, is actually, in this case, a pretty clever and simple design solution. But presumably, I mean, to keep it nothing, I mean, like nature takes things over when you do not pay attention to it.
SPEAKER_06: So like what keeps the trees from coming back in? Are they just like constantly working? Well, sort of. I mean, they kind of let it grow out a little bit, but they have these groups, right?
SPEAKER_05: There's this International Boundary Commission, which is a joint venture between the US and Canada. And each country sends their own crews and equipment to maintain like different parts of the slash at different times. And both sides coordinate periodically, you know, they meet up and divvy up the work so that none of it gets too tall. And like there's always somebody like watching the different parts. So there's this roving group of landscapers that are just hiking around, cutting down trees that are like clearing brush.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, that's it in a nutshell. And, you know, some of them in the east can at least stay at hotels.
SPEAKER_05: Those in the west and, you know, other places like have to camp in more rural areas. And as you might imagine, this gig can be really hard. You know, it involves really remote places and rough terrain. And a lot of their work is just getting to and from the slash. Yeah. And like I can see why the slash works.
SPEAKER_06: Again, like we said, like from like looking at it from a great height in terms of satellites, you can sort of mark the border. But like, why not just put it a plaque in every, you know, like every, I don't know, 100 yards, maybe? It seems like that would be easier than clearing a bunch of trees. Well, they sort of do that, too. There are these little monuments along the border, but it's really the slash that makes the crossing clear.
SPEAKER_05: Because if you imagine like the border only having markers or signs or plaques, they would have to be huge and really tightly spaced to be visible amidst like all the trees in a rural area. But in clear cut zones, they can be much smaller and you can see them. And so that visibility created by the slash helps reduce the odds of someone accidentally winding up on the wrong side, like a jogger innocently crossing without even realizing what they're doing.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah. So if you're jogging through this remote part of the forest or whatever it is, I don't know how you would probably reach most of these places. But if you were hiking through the forest there and you came across this like unnaturally linear clearing, it's a good sign that you hit the border and you should turn back.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, exactly. And when I think about it and I compare this project to that fictitious border chain we were talking about and like how much work that would take to do. I really can't help but think it sounds even more believable in hindsight. Right. Like if they can do this slash, they could do a border chain too.
SPEAKER_06: I think they could do it more easily. Just like links of chain across. Yeah, just place a chain. Oh my goodness. Well, that is really fascinating. Well, well, there's some news you can use if you're a remote hiker. You know when you cross the border. So we're here to keep you out of trouble.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah. And if you really like nerding out about specifically the border between Minnesota and Canada, you can check out an episode where Roman and I talked about the northwest angle, which is another really fascinating aspect of a border that you've probably never thought about before and may never think about again. Yeah. It's this little chunk of Minnesota that sort of is separated by the lake and is connected to Canada, which is really, that's a weird place.
SPEAKER_06: It's a very weird place. It's great.
SPEAKER_05: Thank you, Kurt.
SPEAKER_06: 99% Invisible was produced this week by Kurt Kohlstedt, Vivien Ley, and Lasha Madon. Mixed in tech production by Amita Ganatra. Music by our director of sound, Swan Riel. Delaney Hall is the executive producer. The rest of the team includes Christopher Johnson, Emmett Fitzgerald, Chris Berube, Joe Rosenberg, Sophia Klatsker, and me, Roman Mars. We are part of the Stitcher and Sirius XM podcast family. Now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora building in beautiful uptown Oakland, California. You can find the show and join discussions about the show on Facebook. You can tweet at me at Roman Mars and the show at 99pi.org. We're on Instagram and Reddit too. You can find links to other Stitcher shows I love as well as every past episode of 99pi at 99pi.org.
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