SPEAKER_04: Every kid learns differently, so it's really important that your children have the educational support that they need to help them keep up and excel. If your child needs homework help, check out iXcel, the online learning platform for kids. iXcel covers math, language arts, science, and social studies through interactive practice problems from pre-K to 12th grade. As kids practice, they get positive feedback and even awards. With the school year ramping up, now is the best time to get iXcel. Our listeners can get an exclusive 20% off iXcel membership when they sign up today at iXcel.com slash invisible. That's the letters iXcel dot com slash invisible. Some companies are big, others are small. To Robert Half, their hiring needs are equally huge. At Robert Half, our specialized recruiting professionals elevate their expertise with proprietary A.I. tools to transform candidate discovery, assessment, and selection. Whether sourcing talent locally or in any geography that works for you, Robert Half can pinpoint hard to find candidates in finance and accounting, technology, marketing and creative, legal, and administrative and customer support. At Robert Half, we know talent. Learn more at roberthalf.com slash invisible. Squarespace is the all-in-one platform for building your brand and growing your business online. Stand out with a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything. Your products, content you create, and even your time. You can easily display posts from your social profiles on your website or share new blogs or videos to social media. Automatically push website content to your favorite channels so your followers can share it too. Go to squarespace dot com slash invisible for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code invisible to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. This is 99% Invisible. I'm Roman Mars. Humans have been living in cities for a really long time. But like a lot of things about the past, getting around cities used to be just needlessly difficult because we didn't have reliable maps or street signs or even addresses. An address is something we all take for granted today. But in ancient Rome, if you wanted to go to a friend's house, you had to use all kinds of context clues. Like you had to remember that the house was two blocks away from a big column. But if you reached the horse stables, you'd gone too far. And you had to rely on non-visual cues like smells and noises. You had all sorts of noise and, you know, street hawkers and you had different smells.
SPEAKER_01: You had the smell of, you know, a meat market. Yes, sometimes you had to use meat smells to figure out where you were going.
SPEAKER_04: Maybe one of the ways you navigate is you navigate much more by your senses.
SPEAKER_01: You can actually use what you're seeing and what you're smelling and what you're hearing as ways of navigating around the city.
SPEAKER_04: This is Deirdre Mask. I'm the author of the address book, What Street Addresses Reveal About Identity, Race, Wealth, and Power.
SPEAKER_01: Deirdre's book looks at how the world has changed since street addresses became popular during the Enlightenment.
SPEAKER_04: So today, we're going to take a tour through some of the many ways street addresses shaped our lives, including how we fight disease.
SPEAKER_02: 54 Frith Street, London, England, the office of Dr. John Snow.
SPEAKER_04: So street addresses come up in the 1700s and they made all sorts of new things possible. And one of the first things they revolutionized was our approach to public health. So can you tell me how addresses related to the cholera epidemic in London? A doctor called John Snow, this is in the Victorian London.
SPEAKER_01: He was actually a very prestigious doctor, but he lived actually right next to a slum. And when a case of cholera broke out in London, he was able to track the cholera in the slum. Now at the time, there was no germ theory of disease, but he had this idea that it was spreading through water. And he was basically able to get death certificates, get people's addresses, do some shoe leather work himself, and trace where everybody was. And then, you know, they sort of were clumping around this pump. John Snow took off the handle of, or not John Snow himself, the government took off the handle of the pump. The cholera epidemic goes away. He was able to use these location and disease to find the source of the cholera. But speaking to modern epidemiologists, I learned that actually what John Snow did in two days in Victorian London is actually impossible in huge swaths of the world today. Yeah. You mentioned in the book that countries without good address systems have a much harder time fighting disease.
SPEAKER_04: And you bring up Haiti as an example. Tell me what happened there.
SPEAKER_01: You know, there was a terrible earthquake, as we all know, in Haiti in 2010, which was followed by a vicious case of cholera that spread throughout the country. And when I spoke to logisticians at Doctors Without Borders who were coordinating the response to the epidemic, basically they weren't able to track down their patients in the same way that John Snow could track down the patients in this London slum, which, you know, severely hindered their ability to stop the spread of the disease. So, you know, it's a complicated story, but basically if you don't have a way of finally tracking where people are, you don't have a way of finally tracking where disease is.
SPEAKER_04: Addresses have a lot of positive effects, like trace and disease, and they make it possible for the government to provide services and things like that. But they also give the state a lot of power, and that power can be abused. So could you talk about, you know, the tyranny of addresses, so to speak?
SPEAKER_01: Yes. In the book I talk about the example of Austria during the Habsburg Empire, during the reign of Maria Theresa, who had an issue, a problem, which is that she, you know, was fighting all these wars and she needed good, strong men to fight in the wars, but she was having trouble finding them. So she ended up sending out the military to number the houses in her kingdom, and while doing so, taking a kind of census. And people did not like these house numbers. And it makes a lot of sense when you think about it, especially if you've never had a number before, because numbering is, as there's a scholar named Anton Tantner who's written about this extensively, it's dehumanizing, you know. Nobody likes to think of themselves as a number. But also it has this function of if you were able to live your life in relative privacy and then suddenly you're revealed to the state by a number painted on your wall. There is something deeply upsetting in this. So this was a good thing in a sense to get numbered, because often this ushered in positive changes like, you know, taxes and getting around and people loved the post. But there are downsides to this as well, because now the state can find you, it can imprison you. There are all sorts of negative aspects to being found, as anyone who's ever received junk mail or solicitations can know in a milder form. The story of what happened in Austria and also across Europe as house numbers came up, is a story basically of the conflicting views we have about the state being able to find us and identify us. I never really considered the sinister side of addresses until like a little while ago, actually, I had a friend of mine who was a journalist and long time in Cambodia.
SPEAKER_04: The government was trying to impose addresses in parts of Cambodia, who, you know, within living memory had genocide and a purge of people. And the citizenry there was like, f*** that. Like, I do not want the government to have any knowledge of where I am. And it kind of blew my mind, because I thought of addresses, I mean, I really didn't think of them at all. I thought of them as neutral things. Did you notice in your research that depending on how benevolently you viewed the government and viewed type of control, how people took to the concept of addresses versus people who didn't have that experience? It sounds very familiar to me.
SPEAKER_01: And so the way I got started on this whole project, the first thing I wrote about was about West Virginia, about a very rural county in West Virginia called McDowell County, which at the time had no street addresses. The state embarked on a huge project to give them street addresses. And so I went and I interviewed lots and lots of people. In some ways it was sort of like a quirky story, because people would fight over naming their street Crunchy Granola Road. Or, you know, there was a street, one official told me, where a certain kind of older lady lived on that was called Cougar Lane. It was just, at first it was quite quirky. But then you started hearing stories about people who really didn't want addresses. And you talk to the addressing coordinators, and they actually found their work really difficult. And there were reports of people coming out and meeting addresses with machetes in their back pockets. And people often would say, oh, those are just, you know, they would see them as being ignorant or backwards or, you know. But you know what, the more I read about addresses, the more I realized that they knew, a lot of other people didn't knew, that these addresses weren't just designed as they were being pitched to provide emergency services. Even though that's extremely important, I'm not denying that that's not an excellent reason to give addresses. But they knew there were other benefits to the government of being able to finally track its citizens. This was seen as a violent act, actually exposing them to the eye of the state. So I guess a lot of it comes down to how much you trust your government as well. And obviously in the example you gave, if you're a dissident, or you're someone who the government's not going to like for whatever reason, you're probably not going to like addresses either.
SPEAKER_04: Today it's believed that over a billion people in the world do not have an address. That includes people without a home and residents of small towns and encampments. And not having an address creates a lot of problems.
SPEAKER_02: No fixed address.
SPEAKER_04: So you make a case that having an address is actually an equity issue. Not about just having a home, but like having an address. So what does an address give you access to? Well this really comes up when I was researching homelessness.
SPEAKER_01: Because in my head I was like, who are the people who don't have addresses? And obviously it's people without homes. And one thing I found from talking to experts on homelessness, but also activists, was that when people are asked, when people without homes are asked, what do you need? Well, by definition they need a home. But what a lot of them said was they needed an address. And so there were stories of people saying that basically what they needed was a way of pretending that they weren't homeless. When you apply for jobs it lists address, even though there's no way you're going to get mailed to this address or an employer is going to show up at your door. But they said they needed an address even if they were just called.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah. And when you're homeless it's hard enough to get a job, but you can't even apply for a job in many cases. Like when they have these mandatory address lines on an application form.
SPEAKER_01: You know, the World Bank has seen addresses as one of the cheapest ways of lifting people out of poverty. Because if you give people addresses, they have a way of pretending that they aren't homeless and a way of accessing all kinds of services. So to go back to your question, there's all sorts of things you can't do. You'll struggle to get a bank account, you'll struggle to vote. You know, where I live in England, there's a national health service. Almost all communication is done through letters. And when I was researching this, I was calling up GP practices to find out how you register while being homeless. And even though I am a person with a home, I found it incredibly difficult to get out to even pretend for my, you know, investigating into homelessness. But I found that incredibly difficult.
SPEAKER_04: Is there a way to level the playing field for people without addresses?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah. So one of the proposals that's been made is something called Ban the Address, which, you know, has been modeled on this Ban the Box movement in the US. And by the box it means not allowing employers to ask about your criminal history. You know, basically stopping people from discriminating at first glance against someone. And there's something similar about Ban the Address. There's no reason that employers need your address, at least at those early stages of the interview process. There's also a very clever way that's come up with in England by a man named Chris Hildry, where he's basically teaming up with Royal Mail to use the addresses of empty homes. So that if you could just be assigned the address of an empty home and you could use this and the mail does not go to the house. You know, even if the home gets moved into it doesn't matter. It's the same way as if you move, your mail gets forwarded for months and the people currently living there will have no idea this is happening. And so people can get the letters that they need, but they can also use it as a shield, showing to people that they have an address, which sometimes becomes a proxy for, you know, a productive member of society.
SPEAKER_04: A street address can indicate that someone's been fortunate in life. Many streets like Park Avenue in New York have become associated with luxury and prestige, while others have developed reputations as bad neighborhoods, reputations that are sometimes totally unfair. 1 Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard, Atlanta, Georgia.
SPEAKER_04: There are hundreds of Martin Luther King streets in America. They're often in neighborhoods that are less well off. Why is that? What is the cycle that has created the sort of the idea and the stigma of Martin Luther King?
SPEAKER_01: I think the estimate now is 900 streets named after Martin Luther King Jr. in America today. And they're often, interestingly enough, in the American South, right next to the names of Confederate generals. And commemorating a street after Martin Luther King, who was obviously the most prominent icon of the Civil Rights movement. Largely, he was black communities that named streets after Martin Luther King as a way of commemorating him. Sometimes they were put in neighborhoods to inspire the residents. I put inspire in quotes. But in some of these situations, these were neighborhoods that weren't particularly nice to put a point on it because of the forces of racism and poverty. And this meant that the name for some people was entrenched with this idea of poverty and crime. And it's why Chris Rock, you know, in his standout had a routine in which I'm paraphrasing, but you know, if you find yourself on Martin Luther King Jr. street, run.
SPEAKER_03: It ain't the safest place to be. You can't call nobody and tell them you lost on MLK. I'm lost on Martin Luther King. Run!
SPEAKER_00: Run! Run! The media's there!
SPEAKER_01: Everybody laughed. I admit, you know, I'm black myself. I laughed as well. But you know, in a lot of ways, it's not funny at all. And sometimes you can track MLK streets and find out about black America. But also you can find out about the perception of black America as well. Because one thing I found in my research was that, you know, there are researchers, for example, who have found that if you compare the economic fortunes of streets named after Martin Luther King with streets named after JFK or even just main streets, you know, MLK streets aren't that much economically worse off. You know, they're different. They have more churches, for example, or they have more, you know, more schools because these are white collar jobs that were open to black people. But they weren't any worse. And one of the conclusions that I come to when I write about this is that, you know, yes, a lot of these streets have suffered. But also, perhaps we think of MLK's junior streets as dangerous streets because they're black streets and we're always going to associate black streets with being dangerous and poor and neglected. And thinking about that is another way of thinking about race in America today.
SPEAKER_04: Today, more and more streets around the world are named after famous people from history. And this is why street names have become a proxy for so many arguments about who we are and what we stand for.
SPEAKER_02: The British Embassy at Ferdowsi Avenue and Bobby Sands Street, Tehran
SPEAKER_04: One of the stories that really fascinated me in the book was about the Bobby Sands Street in Tehran. And there's this incredible, tense history between the UK and Iran. And making a Bobby Sands Street makes it, seems like a real provocation. How did it end up that there's a Bobby Sands Street in Tehran?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's interesting. There is a Bobby Sands Street in Tehran, which is right by the British Embassy. And for anybody who doesn't know, Bobby Sands was a, you know, a hunger striker in Northern Ireland, a member of the Irish Republican Army. And so it was an unusual name to have in Tehran, especially by the British Embassy because the British really were Bobby Sands' enemies. Yeah, no, I'd heard the story about these teenage boys who had changed it. So I tracked one of them down, who told me this amazing story that, you know, after the revolution, there were a lot of young people who were very politically involved, including himself. He'd gotten involved in politics at a very young age, and they're fairly wealthy residents of Tehran. So they're in a quite a fancy neighborhood near the British Embassy. And they had this idea that they were going to change the names. Sounds to me a bit like, you know, stranger things. They're all on their bikes going to the hardware store, and they buy this clue that they have to powder and mix water in, and they're basically able to mimic signs, and they change the signs to read Bobby Sands Street. And this would have been shortly after Bobby Sands died after his hunger strike. The city later ratified it, and there's Bobby Sands Street. And weirdly enough, for a hunger striker, there's a Bobby Sands Burger Bar. Oh my God. Also in Tehran. And the reason I found this fascinating was that it's just a light on commemoration, you know. Why does this matter? And in fact, we know it does matter because the British Embassy actually ended up opening up a new entrance so that they didn't have to be on Bobby Sands Street, which I believe used to be Winston Churchill Street, you know, so they could have a new address because obviously they cared. So it sort of opens this window of what commemoration means and why we care so much, really. Yeah, they were angry at the British Empire, and they knew that they that Bobby Sands would be a finger in their eye, basically, you know, just like it just would poke them.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so there's Bobby States to Tehran, but there's Bobby Sands Streets all over the world, you know, I think I counted five in France, for example.
SPEAKER_01: But the interesting thing I found was that there aren't any actually in Ireland. So this is actually sort of a fascinating idea that you have this fighter who, for a lot of people, depending on your belief system, would have been a martyr and a great man. And yet you have all these names and after him elsewhere, but you don't have any in Ireland. And basically, the explanation I came to was that Ireland doesn't have any consensus on Bobby Sands. Up close, his legacy is a lot more complicated than it was for those teenage boys in Iran. This whole idea of commemorating is really trying to figure out what we're about. And what Ireland has said by not giving up Bobby Sands Street is that at this point, at least that's not what they're about. You know, Bobby Sands is Ireland is not today's Ireland. And that's really for me why there is no street name after Bobby Sands in Ireland. Yeah, or north or south.
SPEAKER_02: 2211 Freedom Street, Hollywood, Florida.
SPEAKER_04: So right now there are lots of arguments about street names, especially in the US, where they're named after Confederate generals and historical figures like Christopher Columbus. And you spent months covering street names in Hollywood, Florida in particular. So what was happening in Hollywood, Florida when you were there?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, in Hollywood, Florida, there were parts of the city that were historically black. Part of the city called Liberia had three street names that were named after Confederate generals. And the worst of them of all in the eyes of campaigners was Nathan Bedford Forrest Street. People knew who Nathan Bedford Forrest was. He was not only he was, you know, a major figure in the Confederate war, but he was also seen as one of the founders of the Ku Klux Klan. And so you have these street names, not only in this part of Hollywood, Florida that was really intended for black people when black people weren't allowed to live in integrated areas. And so there was an activist, a man who actually just recently passed away, I'm sad to say, named Benjamin Israel, a really interesting man who's from New York. He's African-American, but also Orthodox Jewish. And he basically just for months just appeared at every city council meeting. And I watched many of these things, you know, where he would be talking about these street names while everybody else was talking about Airbnb regulations. And finally, it really started to click and eventually they did overturn them. And it really, in a lot of ways, exposed a lot of racism, but also a lot of other feelings about street names in the battle. And for me, one of the most interesting thing was, you know, I'm African-American. In the book in general, I tried to stay fairly neutral about these things, but I'm not really neutral in this. I thought the street names to change. But it was interesting hearing the other side, you know, I listened to, you know, many speeches about this, that there were people who would say things like, I live on Lee Street named after Robert E. Lee. And I don't care anything about Robert E. Lee. But, you know, I met my husband on Lee Street. My babies were born on Lee Street. I want it to be Lee Street. In my head, I connected to that, which makes a lot of sense, because in our brain, we do tend to connect place and memory. So it makes sense to me. I'm not actually promoting Lee. I just like the name Lee. And I think that now the conversation has changed. And it's like, we can't just, you know, rest on this nostalgia argument, even if you say you're not actually racist. And I actually believe this. I don't actually think this, you know, for a lot of people, this was a show of racism. But it's this idea now that I think people are having this thing, well, we just have to change them. You know, you have to take action to change them, which I think was often missing. But in Hollywood, Florida, they did change the street names.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah. And so what did you think of the solution of Hollywood, Florida? Like, they didn't replace like Robert E. Lee Street with like, civil rights icons. They replaced them with like Freedom Street and Hope Street. So what do you think of that outcome? This became a debate as well over the course of the talk, because people wanted to name it after an activist, for example, who helped integrate beaches in Florida and the like.
SPEAKER_01: And you know, there was even a suggestion at some point by one council member to just number the streets as obviously an American solution. And then nobody wanted that either. And then I would think about it, I was like, well, why is that? I mean, I'm just thinking about it from an objective standpoint, why is that such a bad solution to number streets? And the reason is that street names have become like monuments, a way where we preserve our memories. And there have been a lot of historians, Pierre Nora comes to mind, who talk about history moving incredibly quickly. This idea of the acceleration of history that things just change so fast, that we really have to start salting away and packing away our memories into things so that we don't forget when things start to change again. And I think that's why suggestions like numbering don't fly, because it's not just that people don't want Robert E. Lee's name down, they want to make a statement. And they want their street names to make a statement. So it's not simply about the taking down, it's the putting up as well. And so hope, liberty and freedom ended up being something that united people in some sense. But yes, the bolder move would have been to actually name it after an activist who actually fought against the principles that the Confederate generals were aiming for. Yeah. And you think that solution is okay, like that compromise of freedom, hope and liberty?
SPEAKER_04: I mean, yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, it's not really for me to say whether it's okay or not. But at the same time, I mean, people often decry these arguments are terrible.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I like these arguments. I mean, as I say in the book, you know, arguments divide communities, but they make communities as well. You know, if we didn't have these arguments, they simply numbered it, if they simply changed it. I think actually, there's a lot to be gained from people talking and listening. Even now, I know people don't often listen, but, you know, there's engagement there, there's an exposure there. You know, we're trying to decide what these things mean for our society. For Hollywood, they decided that hope, liberty and freedom would be great. I mean, obviously, you know, in a lot of ways, I think it would have been even better had they pushed it further from my own personal perspective. But, you know, I do like that there's this process through street names often that, you know, exposes what people believe and what they believe their community is about. And I think that's valuable.
SPEAKER_04: As more of our life becomes digital, are our physical addresses becoming obsolete? More with Deirdre Mask after this.
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SPEAKER_02: Soak heavy pounds, Oakland, California.
SPEAKER_04: We don't really need addresses anymore. You mentioned this, that there are ways to get a driver's license or pay your taxes. You can do a lot of stuff online. Could you imagine a world without addresses in the future?
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, I know I absolutely could. And I mean, you kind of imagine in some developing countries that they're going to bypass addresses altogether for something more digital. Yeah, and there are lots of companies that are really getting that Google's gotten the app, they've got a, you know, great sort of digital system. There's this company I described called What Three Words, which is given addresses in just three basically random words that they've mapped the whole world. So I can in some ways imagine it. Could you describe what three words and how it serves as an alternative to physical addresses?
SPEAKER_01: Basically, this company has divided up the world. I believe it's three meters by three meter squares, but I could be wrong about that. But very small chunks. And they basically given every single one of these squares a three word address. It's not a street name like we think of they've given it three words. So I clicked on a random spot not too far from where I live. That's, you know, create door statue, you know, three entirely random words. And point of this is that you can isolate things much, much quicker. You know, just three meters by three meters. And also you can find things that generally don't have addresses like the middle of a park, you know, if you're on a hike, and you want to map out where you took a picture, you can use the what three words address, but they've also been used in places that don't have addresses. So they've been used, for example, in Mongolia, where there isn't the traditional street addressing system that we're familiar with, say, in, you know, the US.
SPEAKER_04: And you can remember it because you can remember three words pretty easily as opposed to like some map coordinates, which are very like long and abstract string of numbers. But what is the limitations of something like what three words? Well, I mean, one of the limitations I think of all of this is that I spoke earlier about how, you know, the state was in control of addresses, but in a lot of ways, we tend to trust states more than we trust companies. I mean, let's see if that's true anymore.
SPEAKER_01: But in general, in general, we do this idea. So you have a company like what three words, which I think has come up with this sort of brilliant invention, but they are a private company. This what three words technology is bound up in patents. Using it, you can't use them as freely as you could use your addresses. It does mean that you're sort of beholden to a private company to find out where you are in a lot of ways. And something about that makes me really uncomfortable. Also, it takes away the meaning. You know, we talked a lot about these commemorative street names and, you know, how street names have meaning for better for worse. You know, addresses are sort of the way we navigate the world and we connect ourselves to other people. So one problem with a lot of these digital addresses is that you become a string of numbers or in what three words case, a string of words that don't connect us to our neighbors or don't connect us to our communities. So I think it has many uses, especially for places that don't have traditional addresses or for these others uses. But I still would like to hold firm to our traditional addresses.
SPEAKER_04: Abby Madon, Christopher Johnson, Katie Mingle, Sophia Klatsker and me Roman Mars. We are a project of 91.7 KALW in San Francisco and produced on Radio Row, which is scattered across the North American continent, but will always be centered in beautiful downtown Oakland, California. We are a founding member of Radio Topia from PRX, a fiercely independent collective of the most innovative listener supported 100 percent artist owned and operated podcast in the world. Find them all at Radio Topia.FM. You can tweet at me at Roman Mars and the show at 99PI.org or on Instagram and Reddit, too. We have lots of new merch in the 99PI store, including Amabie masks and T-shirts with funiculars on them. Plus, we have links to purchase the 99 percent invisible city. It's the new book. It's out October 6th. It's all at 99PI.org. Radio Topia.
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