SPEAKER_00: It's hard to find the first time.
SPEAKER_07: The first time when I got there, I couldn't even speak.
SPEAKER_03: The Atlas Obscura podcast, an audio tour of the world's hidden wonders.
SPEAKER_00: Here flowers bloom forever.
SPEAKER_03: It's about people, places, and their stories. A new wonder every day.
SPEAKER_10: It's wonderful to feel that connection.
SPEAKER_03: The Atlas Obscura podcast is out now with four new episodes a week. Listen in Apple, the Sirius XM app, or wherever you get your podcasts.
SPEAKER_04: This is 99% Invisible. I'm Roman Mars. Eric Molinsky has reported a few episodes for us over the years, and he has his own great podcast called Imaginary Worlds that we've featured a couple of times. Imaginary Worlds has a very special place in my heart because it is the podcast I listen to the most with my boys Maslow and Carver because it covers all the sci-fi and fantasy subjects that they love like D&D and Doctor Who and LARPing in a really thoughtful and entertaining way. And like every great show, it's about those things, but it's really about who we are as humans through these worlds that we create and share. Now earlier this year, Imaginary Worlds produced a story about the thing that is most near and dear to my boys' hearts, and that's the card game Magic the Gathering. I just called Magic a card game, but if you spend any time around someone who loves Magic you know it is way more than a card game. It is a way of life. I'm pretty sure it rewired my son's brains. I've wanted to cover Magic on 99PI for a while now, but Eric did such a great job with it, it made more sense to share his version and introduce you to another great podcast that you might not know already. Okay, enjoy.
SPEAKER_12: You're listening to Imaginary Worlds, a show about how we create them and why we suspend our disbelief. I'm Eric Molinsky. And this is Nat.
SPEAKER_05: Hello, my name is Nat Neil-Bale.
SPEAKER_12: Nat is teaching me how to play Magic the Gathering at the Brooklyn Strategist, which is the same game shop where I learned to play Dungeons and Dragons a few years ago. But where D&D is a role-playing game, Magic is very much a card game. And by the way, Magic is the shorthand that most people call Magic the Gathering, so I'm going to mostly call it Magic in this episode.
SPEAKER_05: At the simplest level, there are two basic types of cards in Magic, lands and spells. In some ways, Magic is like any card game.
SPEAKER_12: You need a combination of luck and skill to win, and it's usually played with just two people. But it is not a generic deck of cards. Each of the cards has a creature or a spell or a magical artifact on it that you can use to attack your opponent. And some cards represent the source of your Magic, which are lands. The more land cards that you have, the more Magic you can wield against the person sitting across from you. And your goal is to knock your opponent from 20 points to 0 points. Sound simple? It's not. It's really, really not. So when you play, you always have seven cards in your hand that you're taking from a deck of 60 cards. Well, that deck of 60 cards is something that you custom make, because the company that makes Magic the Gathering, Wizards of the Coast, has put out over 10,000 possible cards to choose from over the last quarter century. And there is a central mythology that unites those thousands and thousands of cards. Because Magic the Gathering takes place in a multiverse, and some of the cards represent Planewalkers, the main characters of the game who can jump from one parallel universe to another. Now, I always knew that Magic the Gathering was huge. But I had never done an episode about it because I was kind of intimidated. Like when I used to go to the Brooklyn Strategist to play D&D, we'd all be role-playing our characters like we're in some kind of medieval improv troupe. And then I'd look at the table where these people were playing Magic the Gathering, and it was like they were speaking a whole other language. Now this year is the 25th anniversary of Magic the Gathering. And it amazes me the game is still so popular. Not that there's anything wrong with the game itself, but it was developed by this mathematician named Richard Garfield in the early 90s, and there was very little competition from video games. And now so many analog games and toys that used to be pretty solid are struggling to compete against PlayStations and iPad apps. And Magic does have an app, but the handheld card game is still the main focus. And they are not struggling to compete. I mean, Magic the Gathering has been on an epic run where each year is more profitable than the last. So I had two questions about the game I was really curious about. First, why has it survived the onslaught of digital entertainment? And secondly, how do you create a sense of story and world building in a non-sequential card game? And does all that mythology and world building make for a better card game?
SPEAKER_12: Or is it something that players ignore when they just focus on winning? Well, to answer those questions, I went straight to the top to the head designer for Magic the Gathering, Mark Rosewater.
SPEAKER_12: By the way, that is how he starts every episode of his podcast as he drives to the office outside Seattle talking about different aspects of the game. And he doesn't just do a podcast. Mark is out there on every media platform talking about Magic, answering questions from players. He is a force of personality. Now Mark has been with the company since the mid 90s, just a few years after Magic the Gathering came out. And I have to say, in all of my years of interviewing people, I don't think I've ever met anybody who so unabashedly loves their job as much as Mark does.
SPEAKER_09: My job is to come up with really cool things that will make players really, really excited. And then I have to not talk about it for 16 to 24 months usually. For example, last December we put out a product called Unstable, which is kind of like a humorous take on Magic. I've been working on this project for seven years and I had to not talk about it for seven years. And so when I finally got to talk about it, people were like, wow, you're so excited. I'm like, I've been waiting to talk about it for seven years.
SPEAKER_12: Now one of the reasons why Magic has stayed popular all these years is because the game never stops evolving. As I mentioned earlier, the premise of the game is that there are these parallel universes called planes. And the frequency in which Wizards of the Coast has introduced these new planes has gone from every couple of years to every year to now, sometimes twice a year. And you know, in the beginning, Magic was relying on all the standard fantasy tropes that you would see in a game like Dungeons and Dragons. But as they kept introducing new worlds more and more quickly, they kind of ran out of those fantasy tropes. So they've also had to be more creative in terms of what they bring into the fantasy genre. Like in one of these parallel universes, everything's made of metal. Or another one of these parallel planes is like a steampunk version of India. But as Mark says, a set of cards is a very challenging way to tell a story.
SPEAKER_09: Not everybody sees every card and they don't see them in the same order. So what we've done is we tend to use our cards to build the environment, to build the world, to flesh out the world and hint at the story. And then we tend to tell the story through other means.
SPEAKER_12: Like on the Magic the Gathering website, there's a lot of extra material explaining what is going on in these different worlds. But eventually they decided to up the ante on the design of the cards. So when you encounter a new deck, you automatically feel something about this world without having to read the backstory behind it.
SPEAKER_09: We want to figure out what the emotional core of the experience is going to be. That the mechanics aren't just about doing something, they're about making you feel something. And it really got into the idea of, we're going to go to a Gothic horror world and we're going to make you afraid because it's a Gothic horror world. Or we're going to go to a Greek mythology world and you're going to be a hero and go on adventures and make something of yourself.
SPEAKER_12: Now there are three basic elements to each card. First there's an illustration, which is about two by two inches. But there's so much drama and story going on in those little paintings. I mean, looking at them, I get sucked in like it's a movie. The second element to every card is the statistics as to how this creature or spell or artifact will function as a card. And I did not realize how many different ways a card could behave in a game. I mean, it is endless in terms of how many points you gain or take away from your opponent, whether this card is better used on the offensive or the defensive, how many times you can use the card. And the game mechanics aren't random. They reflect the personality of what's on the card. And the third major element to every card is something called flavor text, which are basically a few lines of poetic description. But even the flavor text has gotten more ambitious over the years, not in terms of how many words they can cram into a card, but how succinctly they can paint a picture of a broad story beyond that one card.
SPEAKER_09: Back when I used to write flavor text, one of the things was it was a lot like poetry. It was a lot like how can I convey as much as possible in the smallest amount of space? And one of my favorite pieces of flavor text, there's a card in a set called, we went to this icy world that's called Ice Age, and there's a card in it called Lurgoyf, which was this horrible monster loosely based on some Norse stuff. The flavor text on it was, Ach hans run, it's for Lurgoyf, last words of Safi Eregsdottir. And somehow just like this idea that this poor woman, that like the last thing we learn about her is she's scared to death because she knows how horrible this creature is. And she is right because that's the last thing she ever says.
SPEAKER_12: And as much as Mark loves to talk about the game, there's one aspect that he's actually the most passionate about. It's called the color pie. And when I first read about the color pie, it just seemed like sort of an esoteric part of the whole game mechanics. But then I realized it is the lifeblood of the game. It is the thing that makes you feel like you're actually wielding magic when you play with the cards. Because all of the cards in Magic the Gathering are divided into five colors. The cards are either white, black, blue, red, or green. And each color represents a different philosophy of magic. So white magic is about control, order, and whatever works for the collective good. Black magic promotes ruthless individualism. Red magic is fiery and passionate. Blue magic is brainy, intellectual. Green magic is in harmony with nature.
SPEAKER_09: One of the neat things about the color pie that I love is it explains motivations in a way that doesn't demean the motivations. Like one of the things that's really interesting. It's made me think about life a little differently is nobody's right or wrong. They just have a reason for doing the things the way they do them. And it's like, oh, what are their motivations? And well, if you're motivated by this, then it makes sense you come in conflict who's motivated by that. I can argue and I have, I can argue any color from any perspective. Like one of the things I did for fun, because I'm a writer is I did an interview and in my articles where I spent a whole column with each of the colors interviewing the colors, having the color explain from their perspective why they do what they do.
SPEAKER_12: So how did this all play out back at the game shop when I was learning how to play from my instructor Nat?
SPEAKER_05: Each color has a very distinct personality in gameplay. Like the colors you use tend to define what your deck does.
SPEAKER_12: Now in my first game, I played with a deck of cards where everything was red. So the magic I was using was fiery and impulsive. And that's my natural instinct when I play games, which is why I often lose because going on impulse is my downfall whenever I'm supposed to be thinking strategically. Meanwhile Nat was playing with a deck of black magic, which is all about sucking away your opponent's energy and using it for yourself. And you're going to take one damage from the target, not me.
SPEAKER_05: Well, I only have one point left, so I'm dead?
SPEAKER_11: Oh.
SPEAKER_12: That was a... Brady Dahmer-Muth was a lead writer on the creative team of Magic. And he says when he would work on developing a new set of cards, he always thought about how the story they're telling with the cards should reflect the experience of people playing with the cards.
SPEAKER_07: Magic defies one of the most common ethos prescriptions in fantasy. And by that, I mean, what's the basic moral message of the story. And fantasy a lot of times is, sure, you're the chosen one and you're destined to save the world, but you're going to need your friends to help you out in doing so. But in Magic, I felt like in terms of the story and the world design, that form needed to follow function. And in Magic, the vast majority of games are played one versus one. It's you versus me, it's my deck versus your deck, and either you're going to win or I'm going to win. Which to me suggested a different ethos, which is, sure, of course you have to have friends. That's super important. But in the final fight, when it matters, you're going to have to fight alone.
SPEAKER_12: In fact, he thinks that Magic is often misrepresented as a fantasy game. Because traditionally, fantasy has been pretty black and white in its morality. But when you play Magic the Gathering, you're not automatically a villain if you use black magic and you're not automatically the hero if you use white magic. In that sense, he thinks Magic the Gathering actually reflects science fiction, which has a long history of being morally ambiguous.
SPEAKER_07: Mark Rosewater and I have talked about that many times, about how Star Wars is a fantasy story in sci-fi clothing, whereas Magic is a sci-fi story in fantasy clothing.
SPEAKER_12: Back to the game shop, I used red magic and I lost. So I started using a deck of blue cards, where the spells and creatures are brainier and trickier. And by the way, when you play the game, you actually can play any combination of colors, but since I was a newbie, Nat felt that I should just play one color at a time. And when I switched from red magic to blue magic, I couldn't believe how differently the cards worked. And I felt like I was relying on a different part of my brain. And my teacher, Nat, had also switched from black magic to white magic, and I felt like I was playing against a different opponent. I feel a little overwhelmed right now.
SPEAKER_11: I know, I'm sorry, Magic can do this. No, it's fine, it's just like there's so many, every card has so many levels to it.
SPEAKER_05: Yep, it's all good, this game takes a long time to learn, it's a very, very complex game.
SPEAKER_12: But that's when I realized how story can come into this. Because to be a good Magic player, you need to know why your cards behave the way they do. And to do that, it's really helpful to go on the Magic website and read the lore behind your cards.
SPEAKER_05: One of the pushes in the stories in the last five years or so, I believe, was to make the cards reflect story events more aggressively, so that just by playing the game and watching what the cards do, you can effectively learn how the story went.
SPEAKER_12: In fact, online, I found that some Magic players had created fan art where they imagined, what if Harry Potter or the Marvel Cinematic Universe were cards in Magic the Gathering? In these characters that we know so well, like Harry Potter or Thor, it's kind of cool to see how they could be condensed into a single card and summarized with an illustration, a bunch of statistics about their strengths, weaknesses, and powers, and a few choice lines of flavor text. But when he was working on the creative team, Brady Dahmermuth always kept in mind that Magic is not a movie or a book reverse-engineered to be a game. It is, first and foremost, a game.
SPEAKER_07: One of the challenges for me in designing Magic worlds, one of the reasons why I undervalued plot, is because I think that plot and games are not friends. Your ability to self-direct, your ability to make the choices that you want to make, your ability to explore the world how you see fit, or to choose the cards for your own deck, or to decide how you want to win the game through finesse or through stealth or through brute force, those are super powerful things and plot subverts autonomy.
SPEAKER_12: And I learned in my second round of playing the game that this blue intellectual Magic was a good fit for me. I avoided all my worst impulses and I became a better strategist. In fact, we also have this issue of I take eight damage from Sphinx of Megosi to my two
SPEAKER_05: life.
SPEAKER_11: So you're dead?
SPEAKER_05: Yep, a little bit.
SPEAKER_11: Wow. So game over then. Yep. Oh my god, I can't believe it.
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, I'm definitely quitting at the tie. I'm not going to go for two. I'm not going to go for the best of three.
SPEAKER_04: There is more to the Magic saga, including some growing pains and the strange pitfalls of intense fandom. Plus, you're going to hear from a couple of kids who always have something to say when Imaginary Worlds on 99% Invisible continues after this. One year is a podcast from Slate that brings you history like you've never heard it before. In each season, host Joss Levine brings you the weirdest, wildest, and most captivating moments from a single year in American history, all told by the people who lived through them. This season, that year is 1955, a time when the country fell hard for Davy Crockett, a team of 12-year-old Little Leaguers became civil rights pioneers, Weather Girls took the country by storm, and a conspiracy theory about communist brainwashing infected the nation's politics. Listen and subscribe to One Year, 1955, wherever you get your podcasts.
SPEAKER_01: Are you curious about the hidden side of everything? Then I have the podcast for you. I'm Steven Dubner, host of Freakonomics Radio. Every week, we hear from some of the world's most fascinating scholars and thinkers as we tackle a variety of topics like why the best employees can make the worst bosses, why the banana is the most interesting fruit in the world, and why we dread air travel even though it's a miracle. Go ahead, listen to Freakonomics Radio wherever you get your podcasts.
SPEAKER_04: From Imaginary Worlds, here again is Eric Malinski.
SPEAKER_12: Liz Leo used to work as a graphic designer on Magic the Gathering, and this was a dream job for her, but it also meant a lot of scrutiny.
SPEAKER_08: When I had, you know, millions of people see my first expansion symbol or my first card frame design and then consequently complain about what they didn't like about it, I had to remind myself that millions of people were playing with this thing I designed. And yeah, some people are going to be vocal and not like it, but it just shows how much they care about the game that they're playing. But I can't sugarcoat it either. I mean, there are certainly some toxic players and Wizards has banned them or at least been working on their terms of service in terms of what they can do.
SPEAKER_12: Now overall, Liz loves the Magic community. She even went on a Magic cruise once. But then she has moments like this, where she once went to an event and sat down to play a game.
SPEAKER_08: The guy across from me while we were drafting asked how I got into Magic. And I thought that was a nice question and I responded and told him the answer.
SPEAKER_12: The answer is that she learned to play from an all-female group called the Lady Planeswalker Society. But the guy didn't seem to care. He just said, huh, I didn't think girls were into Magic. And that was the end of the conversation.
SPEAKER_08: What a small innocuous comment. Like in his head, he probably didn't even think it was anything, but I still remember it because it just made me feel even more a little bit like, wow, should I not be here? And like when you're already playing a game where you have to be 100% on your A-game in terms of your mind and strategy, it can be a hurdle to overcome.
SPEAKER_12: As sci-fi fantasy spaces have become more inclusive over the years, there's been an ugly backlash in video games, the Hugo Book Awards, cosplay, Star Wars fandom, and a huge community like Magic the Gathering has not been immune to those problems. But that said, the game has always gotten praise since the beginning for having diverse characters on the cards. But over time, the creative team realized that they needed to be even more inclusive. Ali Medwin is an editor and designer who mostly works in Magic's digital division. And a few years ago, an intern came up to her with an idea. What if they created a trans character for a new deck that they're working on?
SPEAKER_00: I realized this is what we want representation to look like. This is a pretty natural flow. Like this is not shoehorned in. This is not tokenized. This is a natural extension of already established things about this setting.
SPEAKER_12: They brought the idea to James Wyatt, who is a senior creative designer on the story team. And this turned out to be a personal project for both of them. Ali is trans, although she wasn't out at the time. And it's for James.
SPEAKER_06: My daughter is trans, so I said, I need to write this story for her sake.
SPEAKER_12: Ali and James really wanted this character, who's called Alesha, to be a fierce warrior. In fact, the card's official title is Alesha Who Smiles at Death. And the illustration on the card shows Alesha in full armor, leading the charge with her army of the Marduk clan.
SPEAKER_00: One of the things in Magic that I love about our game is that we don't tend to put boob plate on our women. So you can't really tell what her physiology looks like.
SPEAKER_12: James wrote the backstory for the website, and the biggest plot point that they argued over was whether an antagonist should confront Alesha about her identity.
SPEAKER_06: There was some sense, and I've heard some people say this since the story was published, that maybe it would have been better if Alesha was just accepted for who she is with no question at all. But we did end up with a character in the story who challenges her and says, you're just a boy who doesn't know who he is, which is a terrible, awful thing to say. And to my daughter, it was really important that that was there because she wanted to have a character come to realize Alesha's worth and value and identity as who she is. A funny little thing I remember discussing early on is that Alesha was a good fit for the Marduk for two reasons, and one is that idea that they claim a war name, and the other is the fact that they don't use blue magic. Because in the world of Magic, the Gathering, if you have access to blue magic, blue is partially about transformation. And so it would actually be really easy to change your identity, change your appearance, change your body. And we wanted her experience to reflect better the experience of real trans people in this world without access to blue magic. Yeah, I'll tell you what, if I had blue magic, my life might have gone a little differently.
SPEAKER_00: A lot of people's lives might have gone a little differently.
SPEAKER_06: My daughter has actually designed a D&D spell that will allow that as a permanent transition.
SPEAKER_12: When they finally put the card out there, they were a little nervous about how the Magic community would react.
SPEAKER_06: But there was so much positive reaction that I still cry thinking about it.
SPEAKER_00: It was overwhelmingly positive. Maybe one comment in 50 was negative. The overwhelming majority, overwhelming majority was positive.
SPEAKER_12: The creation of this character, Alesha, also had a big impact on Ally.
SPEAKER_00: I lived what a lot of trans people call stealth for a long time. That is, I didn't talk about being trans. I didn't let people know. I kept it a secret without actively lying about it. I came out about halfway through the process and it was incredibly rewarding. It was incredibly relieving. Without Alesha, I would still probably be stealth, which look, I'm not going to say it doesn't work for some people because it does, but I felt it as a burden and Alesha was able to save me from that.
SPEAKER_12: But Alesha isn't just a character in a story. She's a character in a game. And her game mechanics are cool. I mean, she can help you resurrect other cards that you've already used up. And that's something that Ally really appreciates about Magic, the way game mechanics inspire character development and vice versa.
SPEAKER_00: It takes the design and directions that we wouldn't necessarily ever get to without the desire to figure out how to express an idea through the mechanics of the game. I think that it would be possible to put different stories on, although I really love the stories that we've got. But if you didn't have any story on these cards, you'd be missing the soul of the game,
SPEAKER_12: really. So I came into Magic the Gathering wondering two things. Why is this game still so popular 25 years later? And what is the role of storytelling in a card game? And I think that the reason why Magic has been so popular isn't just the story within the cards or the story about the cards, but the brand new story that emerges every time someone plays the cards.
SPEAKER_07: The real story of a game is what happens to the player.
SPEAKER_12: And Brady Dahmermuth says that is increasingly rare. I mean, so many video games today are behaving like five hour movies that give the player very little autonomy.
SPEAKER_07: In an era where so many games are played alone in front of your PC or in front of your console, Magic requires this community, requires this human presence. It's compelling enough in its mechanics and its gameplay and systems that it wants to hold onto your brain. It wants you to explore its complexities. But in order to do so, you have to interface with other humans. And because of that, it ends up being this naturally viral thing where if I want to see if my new deck works, I'm going to have to find somebody to play it against.
SPEAKER_12: In other words, the magic of the game is real world human interaction. And real world human interaction is in short supply these days. So that's it for this week. Thank you for listening. Special thanks to Nat Bale, Mark Rosewater, Ali Medwin, James Wyatt, Brady Dahmermuth, and Liz Leo.
SPEAKER_08: Magic has some of the best fantasy art out there, and I don't even feel ashamed saying it.
SPEAKER_12: I asked Liz if she's any favorite cards.
SPEAKER_08: I love the card Hydra Doodle. It's this Hydra, but it's also a poodle. And all the heads are off doing weird, crazy things, and the flavor text is less housebroken than housebreaking. That's good. It's a good card.
SPEAKER_08: It's really cute.
SPEAKER_04: Imaginary Worlds is produced by Eric Molinsky and Stephanie Billman. You can find it at imaginaryworldspodcast.org. We'll have a link in the show notes. So when it comes to magic in particular, my boys Carver and Maslow always, always have something to say. What do you guys say, boys?
SPEAKER_13: Hello, my name is Carver and I play Magic the Gathering. My favorite thing to do in formats is to try to find a combo or something like that that is so good that it will end up destroying the format. It would just, it's unbeatable. For instance, the copycat combo. The copycat combo is where the person who made it found a way to make infinite little cats to attack for infinite damage by around turn four. And it was, it was ridiculously consistent at two. And every time it won, and it turns out that no one could beat it. No one could find a way to beat it. And everyone who didn't play the deck lost. And eventually they found out it was so good that both cards needed to be banned and taken out of the format entirely so that it wouldn't go on like this.
SPEAKER_04: And so your goal is to find another one of those.
SPEAKER_13: Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_02: My name is Maslow and I also play Magic the Gathering. I prefer playing the Izzet colors, which are red and blue. I like to play a lot of instants and sorcery cards, and I normally play a little too many creatures for that type of deck. The great thing about instants is that you don't need to wait around while it's other people's turns. You can do stuff as long as you have enough mana for it. You can play instances on other people's turns.
SPEAKER_04: What's an example of a type of instant card you can play on someone else's turn?
SPEAKER_02: For instance, get it? There's a card called Sonic Assault. And I normally would play this on an opponent's turn when they're attacking. And I'd say, before attacks resolve, I tap, insert creature name here, and that makes it so it can't attack. And as an added bonus, the control of that creature takes two damage because that's another feature of the card.
SPEAKER_04: Cool. That was for a few of you old school diehard fans. Happy 2019. 99% Invisible is a project of 91.7 KALW in San Francisco and produced on Radio Row in beautiful downtown Oakland, California. We are a proud member of Radio-Topia from PRX, a collection of fiercely independent and fascinating podcasts. Find them all at Radio-Topia.fm. There's a brand new show next week produced in-house, so stay tuned for that. It's Mini Stories Part 2. Happy New Year.
