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SPEAKER_06: Bambas makes clothing designed for warm weather. From soft, breezy layers that you can move in with ease to socks that wick sweat and cushion every step. Socks, underwear and t-shirts are the number one, two and three most requested items in homeless shelters. That's why for every comfy item you purchase, Bambas donates another comfy item to someone in need. Every item is seamless, tagless and effortlessly soft. Bambas are the clothes that you want to get dressed and move in every day. I'm telling you, you are excited when you've done the laundry recently and the Bamba socks are at the top of the sock drawer because your feet are about to feel good all day long. Go to B O M B A S dot com slash nine nine P.I. and use code nine nine P.I. for 20 percent off your first purchase. That's Bambas. B O M B A S dot com slash nine nine P.I. code nine nine P.I.. This is 99 percent invisible. I'm Roman Mars. People all over the world are flirting with an idea called basic income. Basic income. Basic income.
SPEAKER_04: Basic income for all. The idea behind the basic income is that each citizen receives a payment every month. As a right without conditions and paid individually. Basic income, also known as universal basic income or unconditional basic income or UBI.
SPEAKER_03: That's producer Avery Truffleman.
SPEAKER_06: Very, very roughly defined.
SPEAKER_03: Universal basic income is this idea that a government would pay all their citizens and everyone would get a flat sum of money every month to cover their basic needs, whether or not they have a job. And this money would be no strings attached with no conditions. And this would hopefully remove any stigma from receiving it. It's free money. Basically, it's free money. The logic behind it is this.
SPEAKER_06: A lot of jobs don't pay enough money for people to even make rent or buy groceries. You can work full time and still be below the poverty line. So it's easy to understand why people on the left would advocate for a guaranteed income.
SPEAKER_03: But also a version of this concept is popular in libertarian circles. They see basic income as a way to shrink the welfare state. For example, you could take away food stamps, Medicare and housing subsidies and replace all of it with one flat sum. People in tech are also interested in the concept of basic income and they feel a certain urgency about it.
SPEAKER_06: Robots are coming for our jobs, they say. And basic income is the best way for humans to maintain a decent lifestyle when our labor is increasingly obsolete. Our generation is going to have to deal with tens of millions of jobs replaced by automation like self-driving cars and trucks.
SPEAKER_07: But we have the potential to do so much more than that.
SPEAKER_03: That's Mark Zuckerberg giving a commencement speech at Harvard. And what he's getting at is in a world where jobs are scarce, everyone will need a financial cushion. And then, by his logic, if people don't have to worry about food and shelter, maybe they'd feel freer to innovate. Maybe they'd start a new company or go back to school.
SPEAKER_07: We should explore ideas like universal basic income to make sure that everyone has a cushion to try new ideas. Listen to that Harvard crowd. They're just eating it up.
SPEAKER_06: Elon Musk has also advocated for UBI and the startup incubator Y Combinator will soon begin its own pilot experiment right here in Oakland to study what happens when they give a group of people a basic income. It's actually an idea that's been around for a long time and there are many different variations on it.
SPEAKER_03: But recently, there have been a number of experiments with forms of basic income happening around the world. A nonprofit is running an experiment with UBI in Kenya and Ontario, Canada just launched a test in three different cities. But this recent excitement about basic income experimentation is largely focused on Finland. Finland will be the first country in the world to pilot a basic income.
SPEAKER_03: Finland's experiment with universal basic income.
SPEAKER_04: Is it a great idea or is it just Finnish financial folly?
SPEAKER_06: In the beginning of 2017, the Finnish government began an experiment with a basic income.
SPEAKER_03: And this news about the Finland experiment was really exciting. Maybe we will learn what people will do if they can make money without work. Will they just hang out at home? Will society grind to a halt? How will people find meaning in their lives and how will they evaluate success? And that's of course the big question.
SPEAKER_05: It's the kind of the acid test of basic income that will receiving basic income make people more or less active? Whatever the activities, whether it's just walking around or whether it's taking care of your neighborhood's kids or applying for work. This is Rope Moka.
SPEAKER_03: Founder of Demos Helsinki. We are a Helsinki based team.
SPEAKER_05: And here's what I learned talking to Rope and other people in Finland about this experiment with basic income.
SPEAKER_03: To talk about basic income in Finland started before the understanding of what the outcomes of automation would be
SPEAKER_05: for the employment market.
SPEAKER_03: The Finland experiment is not about robots. And it's not to see if people will stop working when they get free money. The experiment is to find out if giving people basic income will actually help them start working.
SPEAKER_06: And this whole experiment is especially interesting to us here at 99PI. Not just for what Finland is testing, but how they are testing it. Finland is trying out a unique design oriented way of thinking about government. Rather than just rolling out laws on a massive scale, they are trying to craft legislation in stages with user feedback, like a piece of design.
SPEAKER_03: Because every good design is made to fill a need or solve a problem. And this is the problem. I hate it to be unemployed.
SPEAKER_01: Right now in 2017, the unemployment rate in Finland is at 8.8%.
SPEAKER_03: And that's about double the US unemployment rate. And that rate is worse in smaller Finnish cities like Joensu. Joensu is in eastern Finland.
SPEAKER_01: Eastern Finland has always been the poorest parts of the country. This is Sanna Leskienen, resident of Joensu, which is about an hour's drive away from the Russian border.
SPEAKER_03: She's 39 and she's been unemployed for a little over two years.
SPEAKER_01: Unemployment has been here bigger than say in southern or western Finland. Because we are far from bigger cities where are more, much, much, much more job opportunities.
SPEAKER_03: Sanna has a masters in history and she worked as a researcher until her project ran out of funding. And all over Finland there's been a massive decline in manufacturing work.
SPEAKER_06: Ever since Nokia was crushed by Apple and Android phones. Nokia's phone parts used to be made by contractors and companies all around the country. My mom actually worked in that factory that kind of went down when Nokia started to go down.
SPEAKER_01: So I kind of know part of that story pretty well. In the US, depending on the state, you can generally collect unemployment for about half a year after losing a job.
SPEAKER_03: In Finland, you can collect unemployment for about two years. And then there are different kinds of social assistances and allowances you can apply for if you still don't have a job. But here's the catch. If you're collecting unemployment assistance in Finland, you generally cannot earn additional income.
SPEAKER_06: Or you risk losing those benefits. And then you'd have to reapply, which is a massive drag. You cannot take a part-time job because then you are gaining money even though very, very little.
SPEAKER_01: Then it's counted against you. And so you lose that little bit of support money you were already gaining. So unemployed Finns don't want to risk that loss. They don't want to pick up temporary gig work or part-time jobs or freelance work.
SPEAKER_03: So it's really, really difficult situation. This actually happened with the person we hired to record Sanna. We asked what his rate was, and he said he couldn't charge us because he is also unemployed and would lose part of his allowance if he took on money from freelance work. So he did it for free. Thanks, Jana.
SPEAKER_06: Basically, the government of Finland realized that something had to be done about this system. That they were accidentally disincentivizing citizens from getting small jobs or maybe even starting businesses of their own. And these are citizens who want to work, like Sanna.
SPEAKER_01: Being unemployed makes me feel anyway sort of, I don't know, unimportant. I mean, doing a job would make you feel like you're doing something for a purpose or something. But being unemployed, you're just hanging around and just not being very important to anything or anybody. So this welfare system clearly needs to be changed.
SPEAKER_03: And this could be done in a few different ways, like with an earned income tax credit. But first they wanted to try out something simpler and go from there. And this is where we get to design.
SPEAKER_06: They wanted to design and test policy in a process very similar to the way designers come up with new products. You would design policies that you would think about policies as kind of design objects or design services.
SPEAKER_05: And that means that you could do iteration and tests. That's Rope Moka again, founder of the think tank Demos Helsinki.
SPEAKER_03: And the Prime Minister's office turned to them. So the Prime Minister's office approached us and asked that how can we employ design thinking on a national level?
SPEAKER_05: You know, how can we do like governmental level design thinking? Design thinking. It goes like this.
SPEAKER_06: First, there is a challenge or problem that must be solved. Then designers express, test, and cycle.
SPEAKER_03: Express. That means designers come up with a few ideas and prototypes. Test. They try those ideas out, maybe with a model or a sample. Get feedback, understand what actually happens, what are the outcomes.
SPEAKER_03: And cycle.
SPEAKER_06: Incorporate that feedback to make changes and revise the design. Then the process begins again and again and again in different iterations. A couple years ago, this is how the Finnish Prime Minister decided he wanted to design legislation. Also, the Prime Minister, I mean, he's not a radical necessarily, right? He's like a centrist.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_05: I think this is the most interesting part of the story. There was a true frustration among policymakers that they don't know what a particular law or tax would cause, whether it actually would work. So Demos helped establish an experimentation unit, which is an actual office of the Finnish Prime Minister.
SPEAKER_06: The Prime Minister's office is, experimentation unit is the first unit that was like designs,
SPEAKER_05: policies in the kind of design thinking meaning of the word. There are other governments that are interested in experimentation, but here's what makes Finland different.
SPEAKER_03: They want to create prototypes of laws and then change and scale and update them dynamically as the results of their experiments show what's effective and what's not. And in order to run these experiments, Finland actually had to pass a law to ensure that they were not in violation of their constitution.
SPEAKER_06: Because all the constitutions of democratic countries in the world, they say that you have to treat people equally.
SPEAKER_06: And by definition, if you're running experiments, you're not treating people equally.
SPEAKER_05: Because the people who are part of the experiments are not being treated equally. There needed to be a special law that outlined that, okay, how do the experiments fit in the constitution that says that people need to be treated equally. And one of the first experiments the Finnish government decided to do was with basic income.
SPEAKER_03: Because the welfare office is extensive and complicated and rather than rejiggering one part of it and changing a bunch of stuff around and reworking their normal operations, the basic income experiment just kind of chugs along on its own.
SPEAKER_02: We have automated and partly automated our processes so everything is run by computers. The money, the basic income, just gets deposited in participants' bank accounts every month, automatically.
SPEAKER_03: The program is currently overseen by Marjuka Turunen, who works for a government institution called Kela. Kela, so that's a social insurance institution here in Finland.
SPEAKER_02: So I was in charge of implementing this basic income experiment, or head of it, project leader. There's not a lot of stigma about welfare in Finland.
SPEAKER_03: Everyone goes to this office every now and then in life, because there are 40 different kinds of benefits that Finns can receive, including student support, paternal care, maternal care, pension subsidies, and of course, unemployment. So in January of 2017, Kela picked 2,000 unemployed Finns at random from all over the country.
SPEAKER_06: In this experiment, we have 2,000 people who are getting this basic income, 560 euros per month.
SPEAKER_02: And so they have to be between 25 to 58, so they are not students or young people, and they are not those kind of people who will fill out their pension age during this experiment. So this is kind of like the profile of these people.
SPEAKER_06: Participants didn't volunteer for the experiment. Kela just told them that they would now be receiving 560 euros a month. The news came in a letter. I got a fat, fat mail and it said that, okay, you have been chosen to be one in this basic income experiment.
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, what's that? Sana, the unemployed researcher in Yoinsu, hadn't really thought about basic income until she read that big fat packet that came in the mail,
SPEAKER_03: which outlined the experiment for her.
SPEAKER_01: And I was going to have a certain amount of money to my bank account every month. It's not big, but it's stable money.
SPEAKER_03: 560 euros a month would be a little less than Sana would get on unemployment, but she would also be able to work and not worry about losing it. So I was happy about it because two years that experiment lasts is going to be that money every month.
SPEAKER_01: And I don't have to stress that much because I am a big stressor person. I stress a lot and finding a job was very important to me. So now I'm able, if I find a job, like a part-time job, I could take it and not lose the support money that usually would if I wasn't part of this basic income experiment. Some of the participants have been talking about their basic income with the press, but Sana has kept it a secret.
SPEAKER_03: I feel embarrassed about it because it feels like I have this advantage.
SPEAKER_01: So I haven't been very excited about spreading that information. And now as I'm participating in this, your podcast is like, OK, not many, many people in Finland are probably hearing about this, so I could be open about it. I'm sorry to put it this way.
SPEAKER_06: I'll have you know, we are huge in Finland, Sana.
SPEAKER_03: Sana doesn't know anyone else involved in the study, and most people in Finland don't. Her friends get kind of starstruck when she tells them her secret. I get people, you know, off guard with that.
SPEAKER_01: So, oh, you're part of that. You're the first one I've ever met. So it's like, it's kind of funny, really.
SPEAKER_06: When you collect unemployment in Finland, you have to go to these job training meetings and check-ins every couple of months. But these 2000 participants scattered around the country don't have to do anything at all to get this 560 euros every month. Even though they're part of this experiment, they also don't have to report how they spent it.
SPEAKER_03: And at the end of the experiment, Kella will look and see if this group of unemployed people who got basic income took on work, and compare it with their control group, which is the rest of the unemployed people of Finland. 175,000 people who are in the same profile than these 2000 people are, but they are not getting this basic income.
SPEAKER_02: So we are comparing these two groups of people in this two-year period and see what is happening to these, how are these people behaving when they get this basic income, and how are these people behaving not getting the basic income. And then, when they compare the results, basic income might, just might, get one step closer to becoming a reality.
SPEAKER_06: Well, if you play with the idea that this basic income would actually become a universal basic income here in Finland,
SPEAKER_02: which is kind of like the idea that I don't actually believe that it's going to happen. You don't think it will happen. Well, I think that there are lots of people who are not thinking this is a good idea. Yes, the person currently overseeing the experiment for basic income believes it won't work.
SPEAKER_03: I think that it would be too dramatic.
SPEAKER_02: So we would wipe out all of this social security system that we have been building up for decades, and then just replace it with one benefit. Toronen imagines that not everyone would prefer a flat income rate.
SPEAKER_03: Some people do need more than one base sum. Like, what if you have children or parents with special needs who you have to take care of all day? In that case, you don't have the capacity to start picking up gig work. The basic income wouldn't be enough for you.
SPEAKER_02: And of course, who would pay for it? So who would finance it? It's really hard to say how much basic income would actually cost the average taxpayer, were it to be instituted.
SPEAKER_03: And we don't quite know how it would affect the economy or inflation rates. It's all dependent on a number of factors, and there's no exact math on this. If someone truly claims that they know how much more expensive basic income would be, I think they're lying.
SPEAKER_05: It's such a systemic shift that if we decide to start paying everyone a lump sum of money, it will change the economy in such a way that the whole system changes. It's like once again something we have to experiment.
SPEAKER_03: Rope says that yes, basic income would save money by cutting back on bureaucracy, but it would probably still be expensive to fund. But that's almost technical. If you need money, you raise money.
SPEAKER_05: It's like what politicians do. They change the way budgets are arranged.
SPEAKER_03: If basic income makes citizens become more active and engaged, Rope has faith that governments will find a way to pay for it, because an excited and activated population is generally good for the economy. He says that's why they have to test before anything else if basic income would really increase productivity and improve general well-being. At this point, they're testing to see if it'd be worth more investigation.
SPEAKER_01: I really, really, really hope that this will continue and just spread out, that more people are involved.
SPEAKER_06: This experiment has invigorated Sana. Even though she gets slightly less money than she would on unemployment, she is free to do whatever she wants. I am trying to find a job. I am sending applications and take possibly a part-time job.
SPEAKER_01: She feels like she's about to start a new chapter, and she's ready for what's next.
SPEAKER_03: The tranquility of her mind, it brought that to me.
SPEAKER_01: And it sounds funny because the amount of money is not that big, but it gives people hope. It gives people a chance to take a moment away from that stress, that panic of, do we survive?
SPEAKER_03: It's really important to keep in mind that Sana is just one participant in a very small study. And basic income may have helped her search for part-time work, but when I spoke with her, she had yet to actually find employment. And also, you probably noted that this form of basic income is not universal basic income.
SPEAKER_06: If it were universal, it would be money for every citizen employed or not. In this particular experiment, the basic income is only for unemployed people.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think what we're experimenting now would be called partial basic income. This is a limited experiment. I don't know how relevant it is because a lot of groups are missing.
SPEAKER_03: If we want to see what people do when they don't have to work anymore, Rope says they should next see what happens if basic income is given to people who are already employed, to see if they then quit their jobs.
SPEAKER_06: Critics of the experiment also argue that 2,000 people is too small a sample size. Two Finnish economists published an op-ed in the New York Times called Why Finland's Basic Income Experiment Isn't Working and said it had the potential to incentivize people to accept low-paying and low-productivity jobs. It's an experiment that's far from perfect.
SPEAKER_03: But it's not supposed to be a be-all, end-all. Ideally, it's a first draft. We cannot just consider that, you know, let's give this amount to some thousands of people and then we'll know for sure.
SPEAKER_05: There's going to be other experiments before we can find out how to renew social security.
SPEAKER_03: Basically, if this experiment is at all successful, or even if it's not, it should lead to another experiment and then another and then another.
SPEAKER_06: In Finland isn't just designing experiments with basic income. There will be experiments for what languages to teach in schools, how to change childcare, everything. According to their website, the experimentation office is working on 26 key projects nationally.
SPEAKER_03: And slowly, hopefully, Finland will use the design process to figure out if it's possible or worthwhile to try radically new ideas.
SPEAKER_06: Express, test and cycle. Will we ever get a basic income experiment right here in the U.S.? It turns out we already had one decades ago. Avery explains after the break. If thinking about salsa and a variety of delicious flavors and heat levels makes your mouth water, you need to check out Green Mountain Gringo. And make sure you turn the jar around to see its all-natural ingredients. With a medium salsa, you get hearty chunks of tomatoes, tomatillos, peppers and onions in every scoop. Some like it hot and for those people like me, Green Mountain Gringo does not disappoint. My favorite is the hot salsa, which brings flavorful heat to every meal with each bite containing jalapenos, Serrano peppers and other savory herbs. Green Mountain Gringo even has their own tortilla strips made with stone ground all-natural yellow corn flour. As far as I'm concerned, the secret to life is to have the ingredients to make nachos in your home at all times. Plus, they have a hot sauce with a tangy spicy flavor that enhances the simplest of meals. It's perfect for eggs. I like hot sauce on eggs. Visit GreenMountainGringo.com and start shopping. Use the store locator to find Green Mountain Gringo products, get inspiration for recipes and purchase products using promo code PODCAST23 for 23% off. That's promo code PODCAST23. If you want to give your body the nutrients it craves and the energy it needs, there's Cachava. It's a plant-based super blend made up of superfoods, greens, proteins, omegas, vitamins and minerals, antioxidants and probiotics. In other words, it's all your daily nutrients in a glass. Some folks choose to take it as the foundation of a healthy breakfast or lunch, while others lean on it as a delicious protein-packed snack to curb cravings and reduce grazing. If you're in a hurry, you can just add two scoops of Cachava super blend to ice water or your favorite milk or milk alternative and just get going. But I personally like to blend it with greens and fruit and ice. You know, treat yourself nice. Take a minute and treat yourself right. You'll get all the stuff that you need and feel great. Cachava is offering 10% off for a limited time. Just go to Cachava.com slash invisible, spelled K-A-C-H-A-V-A and get 10% off your first order. That's K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com slash invisible. Cachava dot com slash invisible. Squarespace is the all in one platform for building your brand and growing your business online. Stand out with a beautiful website, engage with your audience and sell anything. Your products, content you create and even your time. With member areas, you can unlock a new revenue stream for your business and free up time in your schedule by selling access to gated content like videos, online courses or newsletters. This summer, why not share your adventures with your followers in a newsletter or maybe make some fun video compilations of all your summer escapades. Now you can create pro level videos effortlessly in the Squarespace Video Studio app. You can easily display posts from your social profiles on your website or share your new blogs or videos on social media automatically push website content to your favorite channels so your followers can share it too. Plus, use Squarespace's insights to grow your business. Learn where your site visits and sales are coming from and analyze which channels are most effective. Go to Squarespace dot com slash invisible for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use the offer code invisible to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So a lot of people here in the United States are talking about universal basic income and arguing about why it's good and why it's bad. But to me, it just seems like it's not on the table at all. I just feel like there's something about the US that makes it so it would never happen here that basic income is basically something that could only be tested in Nordic welfare states. Yeah, it's it's it's the crazy thing about basic income is it's actually this very American idea and it was first proposed or at least kind of first mentioned by American founding father Thomas Paine.
SPEAKER_03: It's like as American as apple pie. And in terms of basic income experiments, we've actually been down this road before as a nation here in the United States. We did some studies with basic income back in the 70s. I shall ask to change the framework of government itself so we can make it again fully responsive to the needs and the wishes of the American people.
SPEAKER_04: That's Richard Nixon. Richard Nixon wanted to see if he could guarantee a family of four one thousand six hundred dollars a year, which is equivalent to like ten thousand dollars today.
SPEAKER_03: And he hints at it in this State of the Union address.
SPEAKER_04: Let us place a floor under the income of every family with children in America. Let us provide the means by which more can help themselves. And so, yeah, and then he decided to really try and do it. Tens of millions of dollars were budgeted so that more than eight thousand five hundred Americans could be involved in experiments all around the country.
SPEAKER_03: And there are a bunch of different ones and they all had different people running them and they tested like different variations of basic income and different ideas around it. And there was one in Seattle and one in Denver and one in Gary, Indiana, and one in North Carolina, just like all kinds of places all over the country.
SPEAKER_06: And so why haven't I heard of these at all? I have no I have no knowledge of this. And what did they find out?
SPEAKER_03: Well, the results were kind of screwy because it wasn't like in a perfect scientific bubble. There were all these variations happening all at the same time. And some of them were like different marginal tax rates and like different benefit levels and all those different kinds of stuff, which makes it really difficult to just identify the effects because you are testing so many different versions of it. And then actually the really big pitfall, like they did find some stuff. But the reason that it has been pretty much discarded to the sands of time was because people started analyzing the results before all the data was in. And so there were like these rumors swirling around that people were dropping out of the workforce and just like enjoying this basic income. And it wasn't actually a statistically significant trend. It was just kind of a rumor, which can sometimes be more powerful than a fact. And there were also all these reports of increased separation and divorce rates. And that was considered really scandalous and set off a lot of opposition. But then when the data was actually analyzed, it wasn't as large as it seems. There weren't that many more divorces. There were a few, but this wasn't necessarily a bad thing. Totally. Yeah. It just stopped the economic slavery of women.
SPEAKER_06: Exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03: It's not so bad. Yeah. But the American public didn't have the patience for nuance and they were like, this will be the end of the family unit, so we can't tolerate it. And it's all just because, like, they started chatting about it before they had their actual results. Yeah. Before they had the numbers.
SPEAKER_00: You know, it was kind of disregarded before we really had a chance to fully analyze the data. I think that's certainly a challenge that we're keeping in mind.
SPEAKER_03: This is Elizabeth Rhodes, and she is the research director of a basic income study that is happening at Y Combinator Research, which is a nonprofit research lab created by a startup accelerator called Y Combinator. And she works like right down the street. Yep. Right here. From our office. And she is helping to launch a basic income experiment nearby here in Oakland.
SPEAKER_00: We are in the process of we're doing sort of a pre-pilot, a small group to sort of test some of the logistics and work through some of the questions around that and preparing for a larger randomized controlled trial that we hope to launch next year.
SPEAKER_03: After that local test, they want to really expand it.
SPEAKER_00: We're actually looking to do two U.S. states and in broader regions within two states.
SPEAKER_03: They have definitely learned from these early experiments to start small, expand slowly and to not promise too much because, you know, they want to wait for this experiment to fully play out. Unlike Finland, they are definitely doing this because of the robots and because they're based here in the Bay Area, which is like home of the gig economy. They just want to see if this will make people happy in an era where robots take over all of our jobs. Or jobs are not like jobs that are today.
SPEAKER_06: Right. Right. They're gig jobs and therefore having a basic income would ameliorate a kind of economy that a lot of the Silicon Valley is helping to create. Exactly. But then on the other side of it, like they're a startup accelerator.
SPEAKER_03: Like they help businesses grow and they're like, if this is what it takes, if they need a basic income in order to, you know, innovate capital I, like let's see if it'll work. I see. And they just want to make sure that they don't set expectations too high. The study is going to run for several years.
SPEAKER_00: And so I don't expect to see, you know, changes overnight in any way. And so I think we really need to give it time. So in doing this research about basic income, I've come across a thousand polarizing think pieces that are either like, UBI is a great idea and we should do this right now.
SPEAKER_03: Or like, this is a terrible idea and we need to stop it. But realistically, it's going to be years before we know what we can learn from this privatized American experiment. Or from the Finnish experiment for that matter. Because most of the arguments we're having about basic income at this point in time, in all of basic income's many different definitions and variations, it's all based in speculation. We're having a debate without data. And no one has solid answers yet about what basic income would mean for the national tax code or inflation or unemployment rates or the economy or the robots or our happiness and well-being. And right now, all we know is that different experimenters all around the world are trying to figure out some answers. We just don't know them yet.
SPEAKER_06: So this is going to end like all radio stories end, which is, time will tell. Only time will tell. But for now, time will tell. Well, thanks Avery. Thanks Roman.
SPEAKER_06: Thank you. And read it too. If you ever wonder what it takes to get a business like a gas station or a fast food place on one of those blue highway signs, it turns out there are rules. And you can read about them on our website, 99pi.org.
SPEAKER_06: Radio-topia from PRX.
